Old Blue Funnel vessel

Supergoods
25th May 2012, 18:40
I 1959 I saw a vessel in Jeddah flying the Lebanese flag.
She was of a classic Blue Funnel style.
Sadly I wasn't able to take a picture, but have wondered to this day what she may have been. I think her general style would be that of a vessel buit between 1900 and 1910
One of those bucket list questions to check off
Ian

Trader
25th May 2012, 23:41
Hello Ian,

I have just had a quick look a through my Blue Funnel Line book and the only one I can come up with is the m.v. "Phrontis" which was sold to Saudi Arabia in 1958. She was one of four built in 1926 and unusual in that she had two hatches between the bridge and funnel.

If she was sold to Saudi Arabia she would probably be in Jeddah. No mention of Lebanese flag though. In my photo you can see portholes all along the ships side which means she could be converted to carry pilgrims from the Far East to Jeddah.

Alec.

sparkie2182
26th May 2012, 10:06
This may help..........

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/bluefunnel.html

assuming she wasn't Glen Line.

Supergoods
26th May 2012, 12:05
Thanks for that Alec,
I had a reference for the Phrontis which shows that she was broken up in August 1958, but never trust the web.
I was on Brocklebank's Mahronda at the time, she was 8495 GRT and this vessel was larger than the Mahronda.
It is possible that this was not a direct sale but rather a resale on the part of the original purchaser.
Ian

Pat Kennedy
26th May 2012, 16:52
Thanks for that Alec,
I had a reference for the Phrontis which shows that she was broken up in August 1958, but never trust the web.
I was on Brocklebank's Mahronda at the time, she was 8495 GRT and this vessel was larger than the Mahronda.
It is possible that this was not a direct sale but rather a resale on the part of the original purchaser.
Ian

Phrontis seems to be the best candidate, although her gt is given as 6.635 tons in Duncan Haws definitive 'Blue Funnel Line'
She was built in 1925 in Caledon Yard Dundee, and operated by the Dutch arm of BF, N.S.M Oceaan, and registered in Amsterdam.
She was sold in 1958 to M Bakhasab, Saudi Arabia, and renamed Ryad.
She was scrapped in August 1958 in Hong Kong.

regards,
Pat(Thumb)

Supergoods
26th May 2012, 20:39
Pat
Unless the scrapping date was incorrect, it can't have been the Phrontis as it was definately 1959 I saw the vessel in question
Ian

Pat Kennedy
28th May 2012, 19:13
Pat
Unless the scrapping date was incorrect, it can't have been the Phrontis as it was definately 1959 I saw the vessel in question
Ian

Ian,
There was another 'ancient' Bluey that survived for many years, was sold, and was scrapped in 1959.
The Myrmidon, built by Armstrong Whitworth in Newcastle, in 1905, she was a 3 cylinder triple expansion steamer of 4,965 gt, 391.5 ft long, 49.2 ft beam and 28.8 ft depth, and a speed of 10 knots.
Myrmidon was torpedoed and and beached in the Med in 1917.
She was salvaged and repaired and continued trading for BF until 1930 when she was sold to a company in Ravenna and renamed Rubicone.
She was scrapped in Split in 1959 after a career of 44 years.
Regards,
Pat(Thumb)

Photo from the John Clarkson Collection

makko
28th May 2012, 19:57
I doubt that it was Phrontis as she had an unusual layout for a BF. Nice history of Myrmidon - They don't build 'em like that anymore!
Rgds.
Dave

Pat Kennedy
28th May 2012, 21:20
I doubt that it was Phrontis as she had an unusual layout for a BF. Nice history of Myrmidon - They don't build 'em like that anymore!
Rgds.
Dave

I must agree Dave, Phrontis did not have that traditional Blue Funnel style, what with having the funnel down aft and all!
Here is a photo courtesy of the John Clarkson Collection.

Regards,
Pat(Thumb)

Supergoods
28th May 2012, 22:46
Based on the photos and comments and my memories of what I saw, I think the Phrontis is the best fit.
If that is so then the scrapping date is incorrect.
The purchaser in Saudi was the owner of a shipping line and it would be unusual if she was sold by BF and ended up in the breakers yard all in the same year.
Ian

teb
29th May 2012, 05:38
I too think it was the "Phrontis" I actually did a round Dutch East Indies (as it was called in those days) Voyage on her as 1st R/O= only non-Dutchman on board-must say enjoyed the trip -good shipmates.Teb

Supergoods
29th May 2012, 10:46
That's the sad thing about memory, I can remember vividly what I saw in 1959, but can't remember what I intended to do when I go from one room to another
Ian

teb
29th May 2012, 11:24
That's the sad thing about memory, I can remember vividly what I saw in 1959, but can't remember what I intended to do when I go from one room to another
Ian

I wonder could you help me remember where I left my glasses????(POP)

Julian Calvin
29th May 2012, 14:55
From Pat's photograph of the Phrontis, surely that is not a funnel but a stove pipe from the crews quarters.
Proper place for the engineroom was amidships. Maybe the funnel was ducted aft somehow!!!

Farmer John
29th May 2012, 17:20
That's the sad thing about memory, I can remember vividly what I saw in 1959, but can't remember what I intended to do when I go from one room to another
Ian

A friend of mine said he was going to get the nearest road junction moved to his house,'cos he said he remembered so many things after just turning that corner that he could not remember when he got into the car.

Trader
29th May 2012, 22:33
Julian, see my post #2. "unusual in that she had two hatches between the bridge and funnel."

Supergoods
30th May 2012, 00:37
From Pat's photograph of the Phrontis, surely that is not a funnel but a stove pipe from the crews quarters.
Proper place for the engineroom was amidships. Maybe the funnel was ducted aft somehow!!!
I believe the Phrontis was an early motorship, a surprisingly high funnel but very much in the BF tradition. She had a counter stern, as did the vessel I saw in Jeddah, which is why I thought she might be pre WW1.
As to putting two hatches between the bridge and engine room, that would seem to be forward thinking as you no longer have a boiler room or coal bunkers, it made a great deal of sense to use the more box shaped part of the hull for cargo.
Complete the logic and move the bridge house aft to join the engine room and you would have a fairly modern vessel layout.
Ian

Pat Kennedy
30th May 2012, 05:44
Ian,
She was a motorship, her engines were as follows;
Twin screw oil, 2X8 cylinders giving 4800 BHP and a speed of 14 knots.The engines were built by Burmeister and Wain in Copenhagen.
Best Regards,
Pat

richardwakeley
30th May 2012, 07:46
I have an excellent framed photo at home in the Philippines, by Skyfotos, of either Phrontis or sistership Phemius (ex Alcinous). Just picked it out as a good looking Bluey and bought it with several others of BF ships I actually sailed on.
The aerial shot shows the layout much clearer than the photo in Pat's post #9 above. Funnel was about three quarters aft with at least one more hatch aft of it. Will check it out better next time on leave.

I thought this ship came out with a Scott-Still engine, maybe I'm wrong.

Rgds,
Richard

A.D.FROST
30th May 2012, 09:42
I have an excellent framed photo at home in the Philippines, by Skyfotos, of either Phrontis or sistership Phemius (ex Alcinous). Just picked it out as a good looking Bluey and bought it with several others of BF ships I actually sailed on.
The aerial shot shows the layout much clearer than the photo in Pat's post #9 above. Funnel was about three quarters aft with at least one more hatch aft of it. Will check it out better next time on leave.

I thought this ship came out with a Scott-Still engine, maybe I'm wrong.

Rgds,
Richard

DOLIUS & EURYBATES eng.Scott Still

Pat Kennedy
30th May 2012, 09:58
I have an excellent framed photo at home in the Philippines, by Skyfotos, of either Phrontis or sistership Phemius (ex Alcinous). Just picked it out as a good looking Bluey and bought it with several others of BF ships I actually sailed on.
The aerial shot shows the layout much clearer than the photo in Pat's post #9 above. Funnel was about three quarters aft with at least one more hatch aft of it. Will check it out better next time on leave.

I thought this ship came out with a Scott-Still engine, maybe I'm wrong.

Rgds,
Richard

Phrontis,along with her sisters Alcinous/Phemius, and Stentor had five hatches. #5 was aft of the funnel.
The Scotts-Still engines, developed by Scotts Shipbuilding and Engineering Co of Greenock were installed in Dolius of 1925, and later in Eurybates of 1928.
These novel engines, part diesel, part steam were very economical but required a lot of maintenance.
Eurybates was re engined in 1948. Dolius was sunk by enemy action in the Gulf of St Lawrence in 1943

holland25
30th May 2012, 11:26
i sailed on the later Alcinous and on one trip I did a "painting by numbers".Captain Willis on inspections took some interest on the progress of the work and when it was finished gave me a framed picture of the previous Alcinous so I could frame my less than original work. In my youthful ignorance I threw the photograph away.

A.D.FROST
15th June 2012, 15:09
Phrontis,along with her sisters Alcinous/Phemius, and Stentor had five hatches. #5 was aft of the funnel.
The Scotts-Still engines, developed by Scotts Shipbuilding and Engineering Co of Greenock were installed in Dolius of 1925, and later in Eurybates of 1928.
These novel engines, part diesel, part steam were very economical but required a lot of maintenance.
Eurybates was re engined in 1948. Dolius was sunk by enemy action in the Gulf of St Lawrence in 1943

EURYBATES was not re-engined, but her engines were modified to normal aspirated diesel engines.

chadburn
15th June 2012, 17:15
During comparison test's pre WW2 the Scott-Still (as built) was found to have the highest mechanical efficiency at 88% compared to the "normal" diesel engine's like the Sulzer (75%), Fullagar(73%),Doxford(82%),Neptune Oil Engine(73%) and the Werkspoor(73%). I have never actually seen a S-S engine and therefore have never operated one but I would think it would interesting.

Pat Kennedy
15th June 2012, 20:24
During comparison test's pre WW2 the Scott-Still (as built) was found to have the highest mechanical efficiency at 88% compared to the "normal" diesel engine's like the Sulzer (75%), Fullagar(73%),Doxford(82%),Neptune Oil Engine(73%) and the Werkspoor(73%). I have never actually seen a S-S engine and therefore have never operated one but I would think it would interesting.

My uncle, Tom Dunne, was badly scalded by a steam leak from a Scott-Still engine. It left him with a withered and completely paralysed right arm. he hated that engine and disparaged it at every opportunity.

chadburn
15th June 2012, 22:00
Pat, perhap's it was fortunate I missed it.(EEK)

A.D.FROST
16th June 2012, 08:41
During comparison test's pre WW2 the Scott-Still (as built) was found to have the highest mechanical efficiency at 88% compared to the "normal" diesel engine's like the Sulzer (75%), Fullagar(73%),Doxford(82%),Neptune Oil Engine(73%) and the Werkspoor(73%). I have never actually seen a S-S engine and therefore have never operated one but I would think it would interesting.

Out of all the engines you mention it was one of the first to fall by the way side.A engines effciency is judged by its continous running against consumption,it would be interesting to know what ticket you had to have Steam,Motor or Double Barreled(Jester)

chadburn
16th June 2012, 15:18
Double-Barrelled, which shipping companies were you at sea with?(Jester) as I indicated these were test result's and my reason for specifically quoting the mechanical efficiency of the S-S was because the S-S was not a straight forward diesel engine like the other's mentioned but a hybrid of steam/diesel on the same crankshaft. In answer to your specific comment the S-S still came out on top.(Thumb)

makko
16th June 2012, 16:19
All,

The measure of an engine is its heat rate - This is a direct comparison of the heat available from the fuel consumed to usable output shaft power. As the Scott-Stills used cogeneration to produce the steam, then more waste heat would have been captured upping it's overall efficiency. It is also worth noting that Alfred Holt was a marine engineer and his views on new ships and innovation in them was from this viewpoint.

Today, the MAN B&W K90-12 when used for electricity generation, has an exhaust gas turbine which drives a small generator, upping the measurable total output (electrical) and raising by quite a bit it's heat rate (= efficiency).
Another good example would be a gas turbine (or axial combustion engine!) in open cycle as opposed to one which also incorporates an HRSG and steam turbine in the plant package.

Many ships are now fitted as standard with shaft generators which recover output power, also increasing the gross efficiency ("free" electrical power).

If you search on the MAN website, there is an interesting paper from some time back on an experimental generation plant at a sewage site. One engine runs conventionally, the exhaust is used for steam generation and to heat the sewage slurry. Gas from the sewage is collected and used to power a second engine whose exhaust likewise is used to generate steam. The steam drives a steam turbine - Basically three engine's output for the price of one and neutralised sewage slurry which can be sold on!

The balance of power! That is why we studied "heat engines", for me a fascinating subject and one which I constantly have to investigate in the course of my current work.

Regards,
Dave

chadburn
16th June 2012, 19:49
Although I have served on vessel's who's engine's were getting on in year's, and as I have previously mentioned I have not seen the S-S engine, does anybody on this site have any photograph's of same?
The consumption of Diesel oil fuel per BHP for all purposes was 0.37lb per hour. The steam was used to Manoeuvre and start the diesel side. Then I am presuming the exhaust gas went through the boiler to provide for the domestic's.

Pat Kennedy
16th June 2012, 21:08
Plenty of info and illustrations of the Still engine on this site Chas;
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/still/still.htm

chadburn
16th June 2012, 21:17
Well done Pat and thank's(Thumb)as it explain's there were two version's of the engine. It would appear that it's downfall was due to it being over complex rather than it's efficiency bearing in mind it lasted from the 1920's till 1948 when a full conversion to diesel was done. Regard's.

makko
16th June 2012, 21:35
GC,
I will ask my Dad - He actually saw and may have worked on these enigmatic engines during his "time" at Odyssey Works. It would have been the Eurybates and he worked on it in one of the old docks south of the Pier Head. I will give him a call tomorrow.
As I said, "Heat Engines" is a fascinating subject!
Thanks too, Pat.
Rgds.
Dave

chadburn
17th June 2012, 11:30
Cheers Makko, I am interested to know, bearing in mind the engine as built lasted over 20 year's there still appear's to be some confusion about it's set up. Pat's finding does cast some light on it now that we know there were two version's.

A.D.FROST
17th June 2012, 12:44
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makko
17th June 2012, 15:52
Thanks ADF!
Rgds.
Dave

chadburn
17th June 2012, 18:40
It's only good manner's to thank you AFD for posting the article, as it was good manner's on my part to answer your question in regard's to my qualification's. Could you answer my question in regard's to which shipping companies you sailed with?

A.D.FROST
17th June 2012, 18:55
It's only good manner's to thank you AFD for posting the article, as it was good manner's on my part to answer your question in regard's to my qualification's. Could you answer my question in regard's to which shipping companies you sailed with?

Blue Star Line 69-84(Ouch)