Blue Funnel/Glen Line forum amalgamation.

R651400
30th June 2013, 11:31
Because of the personnel commonality between Blue Funnel and Glen Line I think both companies should be amalgamated on this forum..
Blue Funnel and Glen Line...

BillH
30th June 2013, 13:38
With that same reasoning, surely Elder, Dempster and numerous other Holt subsidiary fleets would warrant the same treatment, therefore potentially creating an unweildy forum if adopted.

IAN M
30th June 2013, 23:13
I agree, as it would save us having view both. The Elder-Dempster forum, however, is best kept separate, as its inclusion might make the forum too large and, anyway, the Company existed long before it was acquired by Ocean Transport and Trading in 1965.

Best regards

Ian

R651400
1st July 2013, 04:08
My thoughts entirely.
No disrespect to ED's but I always thought they were a separate entity to BF/GL anyway and I knew of little or no staff movement in my time with AH.

BillH
1st July 2013, 08:46
The Elder-Dempster forum, however, is best kept separate, as its inclusion might make the forum too large and, anyway, the Company existed long before it was acquired by Ocean Transport and Trading in 1965.

Best regards

Ian

Ian,

A slight correction to your statement.

Ocean Transport & Trading as a company title did not exist until 1972.

Prior to that Ocean Steamship Co.Ltd was the group company used for acquisitions.

Also Holts involvement with elder Dempster predates the considered1965.

In 1935/6 Holts acquired 45% of the Elder Dempster Holding Co, becoming the largest single shareholder and were awarded an initial seven year management contract for 44 vessels. These were kept aside from other vessels managed during WWII and as such never appeared in Lloyd's Register.

As for company ages;

Not sure as to the exact year considered as the start of what became Elder Dempster.

Shire Line entered shipowning in 1861 and, in the true sense potentially would be the senior had it not been amalgamated with Glen Line in 1935 when Holts acquired it.

Ocean SS Co came into being in 1866 although Holt family members and their associates had other vessels previously as far back as 1853. It was incorporated in 1902 as a Limited liability concern.

Glen Line, originally McGregor Gow & Co entered shipowning in 1867.

Nederlandse Stoomvaarts Maatschappij Oceaan was created during 1891 with Dutch partners.

China Mutual Steam Navigation was acquired through creeping investment from 1900 to 1902 when control taken.

A majority shareholding was acquiredduring 1915 in the Straits Steamship Co Ltd of Singapore

All in all a bit of a complex web which became worse following the 1972 acquisition of the Wm. Cory Group.

Bill

IAN M
1st July 2013, 18:53
You're right, Bill. Got the dates from the internet and should have checked them. In Merchant Fleets 6, The Blue Funnel Line, by Duncan Haws, it states: 'Elder Dempster Lines had come under the effective control of Richard Holt and L.H. Cripps back in 1932.' '1967 April 25 It was announced that Elder Dempster Lines would be integrated into the group.' '1972 .....Ocean S.S. Co. changed its name to Ocean Transport and Trading Co. Ltd.'

BillH
1st July 2013, 19:16
'1972 .....Ocean S.S. Co. changed its name to Ocean Transport and Trading Co. Ltd.'

Not quite that simple Ian,

The Ocean Steamship Company Ltd (1)
(Company Reg. No. 73975 – incorporated 6th June 1902)
15.01.1973: Renamed Ocean Transport & Trading Co. Ltd (2)
10.12.1981: Renamed Ocean Transport & Trading plc
19.02.1990: Renamed Ocean Group plc
26.07.2000: Renamed EXEL plc


The Ocean Steamship Company Ltd (2)
(Company Reg. No. 119806 – incorporated 17th January 1901 as Rapid Coaling Syndicate Ld)
21.11.1972: Renamed Ocean Transport & Trading Co. Ltd (1)
15.01.1973: Renamed Ocean Steamship Co. Ltd - (Title swopped with the above company)
21.12.1992: Ocean Steamship Company (1865) Ltd
04.11.1993: Dissolved


Ocean Transport & Trading Company Ltd (3)
(Company Reg. No. 2428083 – incorporated 2nd October 1989 as Bestage Ltd)
11.12.1989: Renamed Ocean Group Ltd.
19.02.1990: Renamed Ocean Transport & Trading Co.Ltd (3)………see also (1) and (2) above

Bill

makko
1st July 2013, 23:37
Well, I worked for OT&T - A lot of us acquired BF ties instead of the Ocean tie. Daggy did not object! At least my first ship was a "real" BF/Glen, Phrontis ex-Pembrokeshire!
Rgds.
Dave

IAN M
1st July 2013, 23:53
I think we're getting away from the point at issue which is to amalgamate the Blue Funnel and Glen Line forums.

R651400
4th July 2013, 17:11
...Not quite that simple Ian...Yes it is! .
Until the above mentioned amalgamations took place Blue Funnel including Dutch NSMO and Glen Line were a different entity in every way from Elder Dempster et al.
I still maintain both Blue Funnel and Glen Line should be integrated on SN similarly to what I knew then as one company.

BillH
4th July 2013, 20:07
Yes it is! .
Until the above mentioned amalgamations took place Blue Funnel including Dutch NSMO and Glen Line were a different entity in every way from Elder Dempster et al.
I still maintain both Blue Funnel and Glen Line should be integrated on SN similarly to what I knew then as one company.

R651400

I think you have misinterpreted what I said.

My statement "Not quite that simple, Ian" was referring purely to the title Ocean Transport & Trading Co.Ltd which was illustrated by the content of the post. You obviously did not click to that.

It was not as you seem to have miscontrued referring to the amalgamation of the forums.

R651400
5th July 2013, 00:36
BillH
I apologise for the possible misuse of quotes from your #7 but think it would be difficult for anyone to misconstrue its content.
In 1956 when I joined I was made aware of the ED connection but unlike Glen Line was given the impression they were run as separate companies.
Perhaps this was pertinent only to the radio side of things but during my entire time with BF/GL I never came across anyone who had ever sailed with ED..

Tom Inglis
5th July 2013, 11:10
I certainly agree that Blue Funnel and Glen Line should be amalgamated. When I joined the company [Alfred Holt & Co] in 1957 the personnel managment of Blueys and Glens was controlled from India Buildings, Liverpool and we were appointed to ships requiring staff as appropriate. In the late 60's both Deck and Engineering officers were being appointed to ED vessels, and ED officers were appearing on Blueys and Glens, so total integration was in effect then. In the 70's there was also an exchange of ships with Blueys/Glens transferring to West Africa trade as deemed appropriate at the time.
The last "Ocean" ship to enter the Mersey was "Menelaus" on 17th March 1989 flying an ED flag and sporting a yellow funnel .
The master was Brian Jones. [we served our time and took our tickets together in Liverpool as Blue Funnel men]
That was truly the end of an era.
It would in my opinion make sense to amalgamate all three under the general heading "Ocean"

Regards
Tom Inglis