English fishing smacks

imar
6th December 2013, 17:09
Hello!
This is my first message on this forum and I am looking for help to get background on a few English fishing smacks sold to Sweden just about 1900. I dont know if I am in the right forum so I ask you first before I present my questions. When English fishermen went over to steamers they sold many old sailing smacks to Scandinavia and to indentify some of those is what I want.

Thank you in advance.

imar
6th December 2013, 17:54
Since I have now been able to read a little moore what is in the forum I understand that this is the right forum for my questions. Here comes the first once.

There was a fishing smack on the west coast of Sweden bought from England and with the namn "Little Ethel". I have no other information than it came from England in the first decades of 1900. How do I trace this smack? Is there anybody who have heared that namn?

Thank you.

gil mayes
6th December 2013, 18:34
I think that this is your smack, imar.

LITTLE ETHEL (GY140) sailing trawler ketch rigged
O.N.94076. 68 tons 72.5 x 19.0 x 9.6 feet
Built 1888 by Furner & Leaver, Grimsby for Joseph Dennis, New Clee, Lincs. 28.2.1888: Registered at Grimsby as LITTLE ETHEL (GY140). 11.1896: Sold to James Cross, New Clee, Lincs. 1.1898: Sold to Arthur Henry Barber, Grimsby. 1899: Sold to Sweden. 30.3.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes".
Gil.

imar
6th December 2013, 18:49
Thank you Gil. It seems to be the right one. Can you tell me what means O.N. 94076? Is it a local registry or a domestic. I will come back shortly with another one. I suppose there is no information to whome it was sold in Sweden.

imar
6th December 2013, 19:29
Here is another one which appeared in my willage on the west coast of Sweden. Its name was "Deerhound". I have a photo of her from about the last years of 1930 but I have no information from where in England she came or when. Any body who knows?

gil mayes
7th December 2013, 07:26
O.N. is the Official Number allocated to all British & Commonwealth vessels that are fully registered and stays with the vessel throughout her life whilst on the British Register.
DEEHOUND is a tall order, there were at least six sailing trawlers that carried that name; do you have anymore details?
You may well be going over old ground, another Swedish researcher, Göran Olsson may already have the details. Do you know him?
Gil.

imar
7th December 2013, 12:25
Thank you Gil. I have to think if I can find any detalis about Deerhound and come back to you. Just to be sure, can you confirm that you lost an "r" in the namn. You wrote Deehound.

In the meantime I will try another one. This smack was called "Enavant". It sounds strange to me. It is definitely not a Swedish name but it does not sound very English either. It has been described as an English smack for me. I have no further information about Enavant.

About Göran Olsson I don´t know. I can´t remember any such name. Do you know where he is living?

Another thing I wonder. Is there any possibilities to see in this forum if a name have been discussed. I can´t find any such possibilities.

Imar

gil mayes
7th December 2013, 17:52
EN AVANT is easier.

EN AVANT (GY457) Sailing trawler ketch rigged
O.N.99674. 74 tons 73.7 x 20.3 x 10.4 feet

Built in 1892 by G. & T. Smith, Rye for Joseph Smith, Grimsby. 10.5.1892 Registered at Grimsby as EN AVANT (GY457). 10.1899: Sold to Sweden. 25.10.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes".

Yes sorry DEERHOUND. As far as I know Göran also lives on west coast of Sweden and has done considerable research into Swedish fishing vessels, including those bought from UK.
Gil.

gil mayes
7th December 2013, 17:56
DEERHOUND. If you go to this site http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum.php
Select 'Ships name' and write in DEERHOUND you will see all the vessels registered as DEERHOUND on the British register. You may be able to decide which one you think it is and you can then look up further details.
Gil.

imar
7th December 2013, 20:03
Thanks again Gil,

Thanks for the EN AVANT and for the adres of the very useful website.
EN AVANT was the one I was looking for and now I have been working on that website you recomended in order to find the right DEERHOUND. There was a lot of them of different kinds.

Lokking at the size of the others that was bought from England, Little Ethel 68 tons and Enavant 74 tons, both rigged as ketches, I beleive that I have to look for a ketch in about the same size.

There we have Deerhound ON 83547, built in Galmpton 1881 and 80 tons. Reg closed 1899 (no reason mentioned unfortunately). Built for James Thorpe, 231 Freeman st, Grimsby.

The one I have on picture is a ketch and the picture is from the last years of 1930, but I do not know how many years that was after she came to Sweden.

It is just a guess so far but I wonder if there is any chance that you could find out why her register was closed 1899?

imar
7th December 2013, 20:25
May be this is the DEERHOUND whos register was closed 1899.

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/stormjan1899.html

There is no ON number. DEERHOUND is in the end of the document.
In that case I have to find another candidate. What do you think?

gil mayes
8th December 2013, 10:38
This is almost certainly your smack but I do not have complete details of her.

DEERHOUND (GY807) Sailing trawler ketch rigged
O.N.83547. 80tons

Built 1881 by W. Gibbs, Galmpton, Devon for John Russell, New Clee. Lincs. 7.1881: Registered at Grimsby as DEERHOUND (GY807). 1889: Sold to James Thorpe, Grimsby. 27.9.1890: Sold to Frederick Woldemar, Grimsby. By 1896: Sold to Thomas Dobson, Grimsby. 10.1899: Sold to Sweden. 30.10.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Sweden".
Gil.

imar
10th December 2013, 15:16
Sorry Gil, I have had problem with my internet.connection a couple of days. May be it is ok now.

Deerhound, I think we have solved that problem, thanks to you. There can´t be another Deerhound sold to Sweden than ON 83547 I think.

Thanks again, I will be back tonight with another problem (if I have connection).

Sorry about all water you had in England, hope you are all well.
Imar

imar
13th December 2013, 12:34
The connection was fixed today so I say thank you again and I will be back tonight with some other questions regarding fishing smacks.

imar
13th December 2013, 20:06
I am very thankful for information so far. In 1904 there was a amall ketch called Erato sailing from the west coast of Sweden to Iceland for fishing. That means it was sold to Sweden before that. There are no other information.

Another sailing trawler bought to Sweden was Fram. The name does not sound very English so it is not perhaps the original name.

I have also another one with the name Paradigm which I found two. One is built in 1882, reg as Dandy and rec. closed 1899 and the other one is built 1889 reg as ketch and rec. closed 1912. I beleive one of them was sold to Sweden. They have ON 86417 and 95703.

gil mayes
14th December 2013, 10:30
We escaped the storm.
Quick response to PARADIGM.
PARADIGM (GY846) Sailing trawler dandy rig
O.N.86417. 79 tons 76.2 x 19.4 x 10.45 feet

1882: Completed by Smith, Stephenson & Vere, Grimsby for William Moss, Grimsby as PARADIGM. 17.5.1882: Registered at Grimsby (GY846). 10.1899: Sold to Sweden. 19.10.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes".

I will look at the other two later.
Gil.

imar
14th December 2013, 13:07
Thanks a lot Gil.

imar
15th December 2013, 05:35
There was two smacks named Peregal on the British register, ON 91530 and 91550. One of them was sold to Sweden but I don´t know which.

imar
15th December 2013, 06:19
It seems that it could be ON 91550.

gil mayes
15th December 2013, 12:25
Cannot find an ERATO or FRAM that fits, sorry.

You can see now how the Official Number narrows down the search. This is the one that you want.

PEREGAL (GY1045) Sailing trawler ketch rigged
O.N.91550. 83 tons 77.0 x 20.8 x 10.55 feet

1885: Completed by Furner & Lever, Grimsby for James Rich, New Clee, Lincolnshire as PEREGAL. 9.1885: Registered at Grimsby (GY1045). 6.9.1890: Re-registered. 5.1898: Sold to David Smith, New Clee, Lincolnshire. 3.1900: Sold to Sweden. 7.3.1900: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes".
Gil.

imar
15th December 2013, 15:45
Great Gil! They say that about 300 English smacks were imported to the west coast of Sweden. About 20 of them were in my village Skärhamn. Some changed the names but some not.

Here is another one which I saw in the harbour in the 40th and the 50th. Her name was Pride. Looking thro Clip I find a lot with the name Pride but not so many that could be my Pride. I found ON 43896 and 92994. Most of the others are older ships and steamers. Try thoose two first if I may suggest.

Thank you

gil mayes
16th December 2013, 09:48
I do not think that I could handle identifying 300 smacks.

PRIDE. I thought that I had found the one you wanted O.N.92994 and traced from 3.6.1893 when she was registered at Yarmouth as (YH317). She transferred to Lowestoft and registered as (LT734) on 31.12.1897, but she was "Sold to France" and registry closed on 15.5.1912.
There were two more PRIDE sail on the Yarmouth register at the time a 2nd class boat (YH474) and an even smaller 3rd class boat (YH965); neither was fully registered and hence no O.N. Sorry.
Gil.

imar
16th December 2013, 20:35
A long shot for Pride in ON 90378. May be a very long shot. May be those lists are not complete.

Another english smack in my village was Ryby. I have seen that the name was very common and I have picked out some of them. These are ON 87791, 95382, 104025 and 104704. Tey are 2 K, 1 Dy and 1 K. May be one of them are sold to Sweden. I don´t think there could be 2 Ruby sold to Sweden.

gil mayes
17th December 2013, 09:36
I did look at PRIDE (THE),(GY970) but she was sold to Denmark at the end of 1895. If you think that she came to Sweden via Denmark I will look at her for you.
I will look at RUBY (87791) (GY926) sold to Sweden in October 1899 when I have a moment.
Gil.

imar
17th December 2013, 10:17
Thank you Gil, I will ask somebody who may be knows if my Pride ever have been owned in Denmark. I will let you know.

Take your time with Ruby. I will give you a few more in the next days.

Imar

gil mayes
17th December 2013, 17:20
The smack was THE PRIDE. This is RUBY

RUBY (GY926) Sailing trawler dandy rigged
O.N.87791. 84 tons 77.0 x 20.9 x 10.7 feet

1884: Completed by Furner & Lever, Grimsby for Joshua Yarborough, New Clee, Lincolnshire as RUBY. 10.3.1884: Registered at Grimsby (GY926). 9.1896: Sold to John J. Cowham, New Clee, Lincolnshire. 10.1899: Sold to Sweden. 17.10.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes'.

If I do not look at them straight away they will get lost amongst all the other work.
Gil.

imar
18th December 2013, 10:01
Gil,
I got information that Pride was colled Pride of the Ocean during the English period. I guess it will be ON 91502 then. There are others but.......

Regarding Ruby I just heared that there were two Ruby but it did not say if they both came from England. Their Swedish number were 3598 and 5097 but that does not say anything to you I guess, or ........ I will come back to you on the Ruby case.

Lovely wether here today.
Imar

imar
18th December 2013, 10:17
Ruby sold to Sweden in the end of 1899 fits good with the Swedish number, thank you. About Pride, I just sent you a message before I saw your answer.
Imar

gil mayes
18th December 2013, 18:03
I should have realised that she was possibly PRIDE OF THE OCEAN.

PRIDE OF THE OCEAN (GY995) Sailing trawler ketch rigged
O.N.91502. 91 tons 78.2 x 21.5 x 10.8 feet

1885: Completed by J. Garside, Burton upon Stather, Lincolnshire for George William Parker, Grimsby as PRIDE OF THE OCEAN. 2.1885: Registered at Grimsby (GY995). 7.1890: Sold to William Thomas Guy, Grimsby. 7.7.1892: Sold to George William Parker, Grimsby. 2.1899: Sold to Sweden. 10.3.1899: Grimsby registry closed "Sold to Swedes".

We have rain and a full gale.
Gil.

imar
19th December 2013, 05:07
Thank you Gil. That sounds good. Here comes the next one. It was called Septre in Sweden but looking in the register there was only one with that name and it does not fit, in my opinion.

But with a small change of the name to Sceptre there ar a lot to look att. If one should look for dandies or ketches of the same size the ON 99523 or ON 102990 could fit. They seem to be a little small compared to Pride of the Ocean. They are only 48 and 39 tons, both ketches.

gil mayes
19th December 2013, 19:18
Looked at both SCEPTRE (99523) and (102990) but cannot find either on the Lowestoft fishing register. Both could have been built as a sailing trawlers but now being used for coastal trade. Nothing else seems to fit. Not very helpful I am afraid.
Gil.

imar
20th December 2013, 19:42
Thank you Gil!
There is a possibility that I can find her in a book on the libryary in Sweden when I go there next summer or may be I can get some more information at that time.

Here comes another difficult one. It will be difficult becauce it is such a common name. She was called "Lilly". I think that one have to be sure that there is only one who was sold to Sweden. Of Ruby there were three to different areas on the west coast.

Sorry about the waether on your island. Here we have some good days at the moment. I am living in Greece since I have retired.

Have a nice Weekend.

gil mayes
21st December 2013, 10:19
As you say, not an easy one LILY so many to choose from. None seem to fit except perhaps the Lowestoft built smack LILY (102447) (LT572). She was registered at Lowestoft on 23.3.1893 and is noted "Sold to Norway" and Lowestoft registry closed on 22.5.1911. If you think that this might be the one, I will look at her further.
Gil.

imar
21st December 2013, 17:49
First of all I can tell you that I found the "Erato". She was built in Sweden 1894. I suppose they took model from you. She looks about the same as yours.

About Lily or Lilly I don´t have very much to say. I don´t think she came from England-Norway- Sweden. In June I will be able to look into a book written on this matter (English fishing smacks).

I take the opportunity to wish you a good and healthy Christmas in case I will not come back the next days. I´m sure I have a few more questions but I have to go throu them carefully before I send them.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Imar

gil mayes
21st December 2013, 18:53
Compliments of the Season to you also, Imar. When you are back it may be better if you send me a PM and we can look at these interesting vessels direct.
Gil.

imar
3rd January 2014, 09:12
Hello Gil! I tried to send you a message but it failed. Something has come between which have nothing to do with fishing smacks. Therefor I sent the message to you which failed.

The Problem:
In 1953 a Swedidh coaster was sold to mr S R Pearson in Plymoth. Her name was Gunborg and she was renamed to Sorengana. She got a British ON number 184136 I have found out. She was rebuilt in Sweden to sail to the Pasific to take part in the kopra trade. I don´t know anything more. Is it possible that you can find out more about her?

I Hope that you had a lovely Christmas and a good start on the New Year.

Imar

gil mayes
4th January 2014, 07:24
Not to worry, Imar. I take it that the GUNBORG was the ex three masted schooner, 142grt built Landskrona in 1914?
Gil.

imar
4th January 2014, 08:45
Good Morning!

Gunborg was built in Marstal Denmark 1914 as two masted schooner with the name Vesta. She stayed in Denmark a couple of years and was then sold to Norway. She had the size of 80 grt and 66 nrt in Danmarks Skibsliste 1916. It seems that she was named Guri when she was in Norway. She came to Sweden in the 1930th or early 1940th. She first came to Nordvik and then Skärhamn. Theese are places very close to each others and today Nordvik is a part of Skärhamn located on Tjörn Island on the west coast.

She was named Gunborg when she first came to Nordvik. She stayed in Skärhamn till 1953. The first owner in Nordvik was A B Nilsson and the last owner in Skärhamn was Bengt Holger Johansson or his brother Elon Johansson.

Sorry, I could have explained this to you from the beginning.

Regards
imar

gil mayes
4th January 2014, 09:47
I have asked PLymouth for details of registration. SORENGANA (184136) was wood built at Marstal in 1914 and after registration in UK was 98grt 79net 81.6 x 21.1 x 7.8 feet with an 80bhp oil engine. She did go out to the Pacific and in the late 1950s was owned by Noth Western Trading Co Ltd, Madang, New Guinea.
Gil.

imar
4th January 2014, 11:08
Thank you for very useful information. I did not succed to send you an e-mail on the adres I got. Due to "Domain not found"
Imar

imar
7th January 2014, 19:46
Gil!

It seems that I did something wrong yesterday when I put ON 92963 here. Her name was Greenwood Free and she was built 1886. Register closed in 1902.
I beleive she was sold to Sweden and there had the name Norden and number 4822. Is it possible for you Gil to find out about her during those years and if she was sold to Sweden. Hopefully no mistakes today.

Imar

gil mayes
10th January 2014, 18:00
We have more information on SORENGANA (184136) in fact too much detail to exchange via this forum. Please contact Gary at http://www.plymouthmerchantships.info
Gil.

imar
10th January 2014, 19:31
I have looked at the webbsite you proposed without finding anything about the Sorengana 184136.
imar

imar
1st February 2014, 13:44
Here I am again Gil with new questions. I woner if ON 94051 Coriolanus was not sold to Sweden when register was closed in 1898? Can you tell? She was built in Grimsby 1887 for Thos. Sowerby in Cleethorpes Lincolnshire. What means Thos.?

Spring is soon here/ Imar

imar
1st February 2014, 14:05
I have another one at the same time. She has ON 86445 and is called Fawn. She was built at Galmpton 1882 for John P Robinson. Reg was closed in 1899 and I wonder if she was not sold to Sweden at that time.

Here we have sunchine just now and 15 degrees/ Imar

Roger Griffiths
1st February 2014, 18:11
Hello,
The attached, from returns of Grimsby Fishing vessels shows FAWN O/N86445 GY878 sold to Swedes and her GY registry was closed 26/6/99.
No doubt Gil will tell you more.

regards
Roger

imar
1st February 2014, 21:25
Thank you Roger! She got the name Cariolanus when she came to Sweden.

Imar

imar
4th February 2014, 17:57
In my last message I mixed the two smacks. The one called Fawn in England got the name Ingeborg in Sweden. Sorry. The other one, ON 94051 Coriolanus, got the name Coriola when she was importet to Sweden.

I have not got the verification yet that ON 94051 was sold to swedes when register was closed in England, but I think she was.

Imar

Roger Griffiths
4th February 2014, 20:59
Hello Imar
There is no reference to CORIOLANUS 94051 GY87 being sold in the Returns of Grimsby Fishing Vessels 1893-1898. So I cannot confirm from an original document.
The book "Trawlers and Liners of Grimsby" by Charles B Cox says she was sold to Swedish owners in 1898.
"Thos" is an abreviation of the christian name "Thomas"

regards
Roger

imar
4th February 2014, 22:28
I think that your attachment together with what I found out in Sweden says that Coriolanus was sold to sweden. I have got information in Sweden from a shipsbuilders place that a Coriola was built in 1917 and that she was built to replace an older Coriola ex. Coriolanus. It fits also very well the information in your attachment with the fact that Coriolanus is no longer in the British register 1899 and that it says "Reg closed 1898" Thank you Roger

imar
7th March 2014, 10:14
I have a very difficult thing for you. Sometimes around 1900 a smack was bought from UK to Sweden. She got the name Rolf in Sweden and number 3697. The information I have says that she was built in Wiwenhoe Scotland. May be that could help a little. I don't think that Rolf could be her original name. It must have been given in Sweden. How many could there be built in that place with information "sold to Suedes" arround 1900 and register closed not later than 1900.

I'm looking forward to hear anything. Hopefully there were not many smacks built at that place.

Imar

imar
5th June 2014, 12:45
I have been wondering about a ketch Boy Russel. She had from the beginning ON number 119354. She was built 1904 and sold to Sweden 1911. I have different information when she left Sweden for Capetown. From two different sourses is mentioned 1911 and 1912 and when I look into the Brittish register it says that she was registred in Capetown 1918.

Owner 1912 in Capetown I have been tolde was Irwin & Johnson Ltd and looking into the register 1920, there she is mentioned together with Kalk Bay Fisheries (Cape) Lim., Kalk Bay, C.P. and registred in Capetown 1918.

There is also a cross beside the name but I can't see the explanation down on the side because it has not been copied that much down. What does it mean? Who was the owner after Swedish owner and why was she not registred in Cape Town before 1918. Many questions and many thanks in advance.

imar
6th October 2014, 19:08
The Dandy Dorothy 92985 was built in Southtown 1892. I found her in the shipslist 1893 owned in Yarmouth. It says nothing about who was the builder, only that she was built in Southtown.

Can anyone compleete my records with the name of the builder and shipsyard?

There are information in Sweden that she was bought from an Engineer Campbell Patrik Ogilvie in Manningtree in 1907. When I am looking in the shipslist 1907 it says that the Managing owner was Thomas Myles in Dublin.

Did Myles sell the ship to Campbell or was Campbel acting on behalt of Myles when she was sold?

Thank you in advance.

Imar

imar
6th October 2014, 19:35
In the ships list 1893 says abouth the owner: Wm. Hy. de M. Bessey Yarmouth. I don´t understand what it means. I presume that this was the first owners name or was there someone before?

Regards
Imar