An Eye For An Eye

This is a dangerous theme, and I'm not one for walking softly, but I'll still dare a few lines. As I understand it a former SS member, Nobel prize winner and harsh critic of the Allies is writing a semi do***entary book on the story, and there's a few on the net and elsewhere who wants to rewrite the WW2 who also gives much space to this tragic incident. And I therefore would like to point out that the with utmost clarity here delineated ship was probably not what the Russians saw, and the eye for an eye (revenge) attitude can be ascribed to nearly everone who participated, with excactly the same lack of proof. The Russians claim they saw a big ship, that may be the truth. (Which is generally also accepted as probable when the tragedy is given space in German media)
(Btw, this dicussion will be repeated, and often so by those who want's some guilt redistrubuted, and I therefore wants to know the name of the British passenger ship with children sent to escape the war, that was sunk by the Germans. I saw some do***entary on it years ago). Regards, Stein.

Stein, You may be thinking of the City of Benares - see this site http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/ships/cityofbenares.html
Regards, Alan.

Thank you Alan. That probably was the ship yes. Regards, Stein.

Your post may have been rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: The city of Benares. Listing the number of ships sunk in the war won't get us anywhere - war is aweful and everyone suffers, regardless of 'side'.

You're right Phil. So hopefully you can tell me how to answer accusations made against the Allies of superior brutality. Those accusations are getting regular these days I can tell you, and somehow they have to be answered. I can't find any better solution than point out that what was floating was attempted sunk by both sides, and that: hey, there was some heartbreaking stuff all around! And finally, yes: the Germans started it, which means that the blame for the Gustloff tragedy should be given the Nazis and those Germans who did not oppose them. That's crude yes; better ways to deal with it would be hailed by me. (And I'm not speaking rhetorically here). Regards, Stein.

I did touch off something here.
I chose the name because regardless of nationality civilians in war a simply that. Whether they were on the Lusitania, City of Benares, wilhelm Gustloff or the Athenia. Russians suffered terribly under the occupation and the war in the East was even more brutal than anything in the West. Payback was definitely uppermost in the minds of Russian armed forces

Stein I think you are referring to Gunther Grass's book Im Krebsbegang "Crabwalk".
as for blame In time of war a submarine will sink ships and people will risk their lives to escape an advancing enemy.

For the record I have no truck with National Socialism. my dad gave five of his best years that I would grow up in a free country. I have consistently dedicated myself to that freedom since the age of 14.

Having said all that I am interested the story of the WG as it has parallels to that of the Lusitania.

best regards

Martin

Martin. My point is that your reconstructed picture purporting to be what the Russians saw, with the title "An eye for an eye", suggests premeditated murder on fleeing civillians. Since that cannot be proven to have been the case, it shouldn't be presented as if it was. That you later on gives the Russians a background for your presumed wish for "payback" does not change my view of it.
The suffering of the German victims of WW2 is of course an absolutely legitimate theme, and can even be said to be somewhat wanting in the history of the war as yet written, but when this turns to accusation of particular brutality on the part of those who fought against against the German agressors, then you're really halfway to excusing the Nazis. In this particular context it's worth remembering that Hitler presented himself as a Knight in the crusade against Bolshevism. And that his apologists of today with eagerness latch on to that theory, and take every opportunity to picture the Russians as subhuman barbarians.
All the above in spite, I agree with everyone who calls the submarine a particularly nasty instrument of war.
That Grass's book was already published I didn't know, I had only seen him interviewed with the book as a project. His name I truthfully had momentarily forgot. If you have read the book, you could perhaps answer this question: does he mention the City of Benares? Regards, Stein

The 'Wilhelm Gustloff' - whatever gher flag - was a tragedy of wartime. She was not the only passenger vessel sunk with a heavy loss of life. All sides did it.

On another note, I have tried to get some DVD's via Amazon on this subject - nothing. So what's that about?

Jonty

Agree with Stein !

CVB

I hope that in this discussion concerning the loss of innocent life during conflict, we all realize that non-combatants on all sides are likely to perish. Please look up the sinking of the Tsushima Maru by the USS Bowfin 8/24/44. I do not believe for a minute that the captain of the Bowfin was anymore aware of the makeup of the passenger list than was the captain of the Russian Submarine when he order the attack, but 741 children died anyway. War is worse than hell.