Best position for ship handling. - Ships Nostalgia
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Best position for ship handling.

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  #1  
Old 25th December 2019, 22:46
rogd rogd is offline
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Best position for ship handling.

I've just watched a short video of two Carnival cruise ships in a 'minor' collision some where in Mexico.
Now, I was a leckie and I know very little of ship handling, but it seems to me that these floating housing estates cannot be easy to control.
My question to you Deckies is what is the best bridge position from which to control a ship, aft, midships or forward?
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  #2  
Old 25th December 2019, 23:46
dannic dannic is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogd View Post
I've just watched a short video of two Carnival cruise ships in a 'minor' collision some where in Mexico.
Now, I was a leckie and I know very little of ship handling, but it seems to me that these floating housing estates cannot be easy to control.
My question to you Deckies is what is the best bridge position from which to control a ship, aft, midships or forward?
Roger.
Many much smaller cargo ships had manouvering station aft of No.4 hatch. Never saw it used tho.
Dannic
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  #3  
Old 26th December 2019, 01:37
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Amidships, high up on an open bridge wing giving you an excellent view of proceedings fore and aft is for me the best spot. Plus you're a lot closer to the pivot point when manouvering.
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  #4  
Old 26th December 2019, 02:57
Norm Norm is offline  
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With the advent of azimuth pod variable speed, variable pitch, variable rotation propellers, bow and aft and mid thrusters etc, computer control, cameras, screens and god knows what else the best position is the one where control of same is grouped together. It is probably because of all this technology that more accidents haven't already happened. But wait..there is the weather. A sudden gust of wind on all that freeboard would push a ship for just the small distance it needs to collide with its dockside neighbour.
In June this year the MSC Opera crashed into a smaller vessel in Venice. Captain said the "engine locked"...eh?
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  #5  
Old 26th December 2019, 08:44
harry t. harry t. is offline
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ship handling

No matter the whereabouts of the ‘bridge’, - for’ad, midships or aft, such as on a ‘muzzle loader’. The usual sensible position for the master or pilot is to con the lady from the bridge wing where you can best judge the vessels parallel body as you come alongside, particularly if she’s only single screw with a small rudder.
Always have an anchor at the ready.

With variable pitch props and, thrusters etc – its ‘wee buns’.
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  #6  
Old 26th December 2019, 14:09
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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A very good question but there are many factors to consider. As a previous reply with azipods, CPP, thrusters, etc there is many choices.
On the Great Lakes, I sailed boats with the pilothouse for'd and others with the pilothouse aft, fixed pitch and with and without bow or stern thrusters.
Each had there own challenges but I thought the after end was the best place to handle the boat but others may find it differant.
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  #7  
Old 26th December 2019, 14:13
Tony Drury Tony Drury is offline  
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Always found the ships bar worked best for me!!!

As they would say today - stay safe lol!
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  #8  
Old 26th December 2019, 21:02
harry t. harry t. is offline
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An exception to an earlier post.

One tour on a ship that differed from the ‘norm’, i.e., - steaming in towards a berth, bow first, on any FG ship. As below.

On a shallow draft heavy lift vessel with the bridge and accommodation right for’ad, twin diesel electric engines and two large rudders, tho’ no thrusters fitted then. Discharging at almost any port, particularly in NW Europe, no matter the wind effect on the deck cargo, it was preferable to turn the lady about and proceed stern first to the berth. A well-behaved girl, a dream, just keep an eye on that parallel body, make any necessary engine adjustments to correct drift and it made the job an absolute pleasure.

Note; in earlier days, if your previous ships were steam powered, as likely as not you’d have developed some bad habits swinging the engine telegraphs, the chief will be quick to advise – ‘slowly now, a notch at a time’- that, was the difficult bit.
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  #9  
Old 26th December 2019, 21:31
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I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,
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  #10  
Old 26th December 2019, 22:04
Wallace Slough Wallace Slough is online now  
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I too found it difficult to conn a ship when the bridge was well forward. I'd stand on the center line of the ship and sight down the jackstaff, but it was always difficult. You'd have to be constantly aware that the entire length of the ship was wagging her tail at you! Conning from aft or near amidship as on older vessels was much easier.
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  #11  
Old 26th December 2019, 23:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Kennedy View Post
I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,
I'm wondering if the Romanians copied this design (Tactician) with some modifications.
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  #12  
Old 27th December 2019, 04:27
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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On "Lake" boats when the pilothouse was right for'd there was a steering aid right on the bow called a "spearpole". For night time it had a small light.
It had a winch controlled from the pilothouse to raise it up when approaching the lock gates.
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  #13  
Old 27th December 2019, 06:06
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When I was a kid growing up on Shenango Furnace Company ships it was called a steering pole.

Attached: SchoonmakerLocks60s-E.jpg (119.3 KB)

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  #14  
Old 27th December 2019, 09:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm View Post
With the advent of azimuth pod variable speed, variable pitch, variable rotation propellers, bow and aft and mid thrusters etc, computer control, cameras, screens and god knows what else the best position is the one where control of same is grouped together. It is probably because of all this technology that more accidents haven't already happened. But wait..there is the weather. A sudden gust of wind on all that freeboard would push a ship for just the small distance it needs to collide with its dockside neighbour.
In June this year the MSC Opera crashed into a smaller vessel in Venice. Captain said the "engine locked"...eh?
Ship handling with all these 'extras' can bring you a fresh set of problems. There can simply be too much 'going on' and very easy to forget that you have left a thruster/pod running. This can be mitigated by putting all your assets through an interface and giving you a single joystick control.

Regarding best position, I think its down to what you get used to. I was Master of ships with a forward bridge which initially felt wrong but you soon get used to it. I was a Pilot for 25 years and have no preference, every job is different. The only thing I would ask for is an uninterrupted view , you would be surprised by how many ships arrive with cargo piled so high that visibility be seriously impaired. And who ever designed ships with no bridge wings ie no view at all of the ships side?

regards
Dave
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  #15  
Old 27th December 2019, 17:28
rogd rogd is offline
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Many thanks for the replies gentlemen.
The video I mentioned is on G Captain.
Surely if a vessel is manoeuvring so close to another moored vessel there should be someone down aft to keep the bridge informed of the situation as it develops.
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  #16  
Old 27th December 2019, 21:43
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There is more footage on Marine Insight:
https://www.marineinsight.com/videos...ine+Insight%29
Also some footage shot from the Oasis of the Seas can be found on YouTube.

It appears that The Carnival Glory was actually heading towards Oasis of the Seas, which was berthed, and some attempt was made to turn away, perhaps hence the stern pivoting into the other ship.. In any event she passed very close across the bows of Oasis.

This seems to bring into context to OP question - The bridge team were maybe concentrating on not hitting what was in front of them to realise what was going on behind.
Carnival Glory does not have Azipods.
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  #17  
Old 28th December 2019, 19:09
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Kennedy View Post
I was in Harrison's Tactician, which had the bridge just aft of #2 hatch. Steering was difficult at first but I eventually got used to it, the tall mast on the focsle was a great help,
I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman
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  #18  
Old 28th December 2019, 19:57
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I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman
You usual snarky comments not abated I see.
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  #19  
Old 28th December 2019, 21:21
Ian Lawson Ian Lawson is offline  
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Depends very much on what type of mooring/berthing you are considering. If, for instance, I was berthing a ship 'alongside' it would make very little difference where I was positioned. If mooring at a SPM then midship bridge is handy and reduces the reliance on the second pilot on foc'sle. If a CBM then I prefer being aft which gives a good overview. Orientation is lost in CBMs with midship accommodation.
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  #20  
Old 28th December 2019, 22:39
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaman38 View Post
I think there may be a little difference between 'ship handling' and being a helmsman
Plenty of my time at sea, Master/ship handler had only prop and rudder available for manipulation of his vessel. So in any manoeuvring situation, ship-handler would give verbal (wheel) orders to helmsman and telegraph (engine) orders to engine room.
Some engine orders occasionally a tad more urgent than others. And whilst all senior engineers capable of being at engine controls on standby, some markedly better than others in responding to more unrelenting rings of telegraph. Mainly on account of adept feel for the job and familiarity of response from it.
So I guess probably all same upstairs. Ship handler might well recognise helmsman skillsets and probably not want to exchange places with any of them.
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  #21  
Old 29th December 2019, 08:28
harry t. harry t. is offline
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Experienced helmsmen certainly do make life easier

from a letter home;
"On first arriving in the Gulf it didn’t take long to realise these GP1’s (helmsmen) knew every port, creek and submarine mooring buoy better than me, making it so much easier to settle into the job. The Bangladeshi crew are river boat men, not at all used to heavy seas and sadly are given to going around wearing lifejackets when the seas get rough. At least in anything but calm weather they don’t abandon the steering wheel for prayers. Most disconcerting arriving on the bridge to find the wheelman and the petty officer down on the praying mat totally oblivious to the safe navigation and her bowling along at a rate of knots, the old engine groaning because the wheel has jammed hard over. We had supplied fuel to the airport until the Sheik decided to pave the desert, so it was back to the bitumen and the odd job backing up to rigs with F.O. His unmarried female relatives all lived just across the creek from our berth. They and all the children would come out to wave as we swung close by into the berth, as we could be seen over the compound’s perimeter walls. We always gave a wave back after giving them a blast on the ship’s whistle. Clearly, a highlight in their day"
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  #22  
Old 29th December 2019, 11:19
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Kennedy View Post
You usual snarky comments not abated I see.
Alas, it was not a snarkey remark, merely an observation, every Master/Pilot/OOW appreciates a good helmsman. However if you wish to take it as a snarkey remark then that certainly is your prerogative.

I do hope that you have a happy New Year, as I wish all others also
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  #23  
Old 29th December 2019, 13:49
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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We on the "Lakes" rely upon our "wheelsman" great deal as most have all the river courses and locks memorized and are a back up should you, through tiredness inadvertently make a wrong helm order.
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  #24  
Old 29th December 2019, 21:55
Wallace Slough Wallace Slough is online now  
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In reply to Post #20 , what a difference a good versus bad engineer can make at the controls! Many years ago I piloted a States Lines Colorado class into Oakland. The next day I shifted the same ship from Oakland to Pier 80 in San Francisco. What a difference! The First Engineer must have been off for the shift and whatever engineer was on the throttle was a disaster. I finally turned to the Captain and said "what's going on???" We managed to get the ship alongside safely and it really illustrated the difference between a good engineer and a bad one.
Another example was Sitmar's Fairsky. She was known in the bay as "Miss Piggie." Twin screw, single rudder, and Italian engineers. Not a good combination.
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Old 30th December 2019, 01:13
dannic dannic is offline  
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Originally Posted by Wallace Slough View Post
In reply to Post #20 , what a difference a good versus bad engineer can make at the controls! Many years ago I piloted a States Lines Colorado class into Oakland. The next day I shifted the same ship from Oakland to Pier 80 in San Francisco. What a difference! The First Engineer must have been off for the shift and whatever engineer was on the throttle was a disaster. I finally turned to the Captain and said "what's going on???" We managed to get the ship alongside safely and it really illustrated the difference between a good engineer and a bad one.
Another example was Sitmar's Fairsky. She was known in the bay as "Miss Piggie." Twin screw, single rudder, and Italian engineers. Not a good combination.
2nd trip cadet, on the sticks in controlroom of Scythia, as she had had her bridge control /UMS revoked, Chief told me not to be so enthusiastic with starts! wait a minute or two and it saves the air compressors! Not something I ever did, except occasionaly in US when pilots demanded so many starts.
Dannic
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