USS FITZGERALD/ACX CRYSTAL collision (merged threads) - Page 2 - Ships Nostalgia
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USS FITZGERALD/ACX CRYSTAL collision (merged threads)

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  #26  
Old 18th June 2017, 07:06
james barker-simson james barker-simson is offline  
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GPS,AIS,ECDIS,Radar assisted collision.
Note MK1 eyeball not involved,at night,good visibility,probably "high volume traffic".
Total lack of situational awareness on board both ships.
The unnecessary deaths of seven seafarers.
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  #27  
Old 18th June 2017, 07:31
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Thanks for those distances SJC. i am assuming that there was other traffic about, it is fairly busy over there! The container ship's bulb must have come into contact somewhere looking at the phots,which would be enough to open up the destroyer.
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  #28  
Old 18th June 2017, 07:57
tiachapman tiachapman is offline  
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lessons will be learned . wait for it
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  #29  
Old 18th June 2017, 09:30
tiachapman tiachapman is offline  
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just heard the master of the container ship had left his mobile phone in ziggys bar and was returning to port to retrieve it
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  #30  
Old 18th June 2017, 09:51
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Radar display failure modes?

It does appear the warship was not AIS'ing. This prompted me to wonder if, with a display on which both radar and AIS targets are being monitored by an alert watchkeeper (let us not assume otherwise as yet), the 'radar' observer would immediately appreciate the loss of radar targets?

AIS was ever technology looking for an application. If everyone is not obliged to use it perhaps it should be removed. Sperry had a very nasty systems failure where 'illegal' (something like a February 29th in a non-leap year if I remember right) AIS data, when fed to a Visionmaster display caused its processor to halt.

AIS is already so discredited that the regulators refer to it as security enhancement without regard to the chapter in SOLAS in which it is mandated.

I realise the proposal could be dismissed reductio ad absurdum - why not, then remove the radar as well and so leave the watchkeeper with only the Mk 1 eyball - however it may be that the protection that a limited number of reliable and constant instruments can provide can be lost in the 'noise' (possibly grass being a better analogy here) provided by others. KISS Keep it simple, stupid.
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  #31  
Old 18th June 2017, 10:26
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The BBC (Overseas) reporting from the Admiral of the Pacific Fleet is saying that the seven sailors killed were found in the wreckage of a sleeping compartment.

Admiral says that the container ship was making several U turns BEFORE the collision. The track of the vessel shows these U turns. I assumed that the U turns were AFTER the collision showing the vessel coming back to the assist the FITZGERALD. Unfortunately the AIS fro the destroyer does not show any plot at all. If I had been watching a large vessel approaching me and saw it made several U turns I would get the heck away from it... not standing on and waiting to see what that ship is doing?
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  #32  
Old 18th June 2017, 10:32
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just been thinking back to my time at sea as OOW that I had to take a 'round turn out of her' twice, once to port in an overtaking / converging situation with the other ship just forward of our starboard beam. The other to starboard when i definitely 'chickened out' early as the other ship was crossing and we were on his starboard bow. I wasn't sure he had even seen us let alone done anything about it nand he just5 steamed straight on. Better safe than sorry!
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  #33  
Old 18th June 2017, 10:46
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Just been thinking back to my time as OOW. i had to take 'a round turn out bof her' twice, once to port in an overtaking / converging situation with the other ship just forward of our starboard beam. One to starboard when in a crossing situation, we were on his starboard bow and he didn't show any intention of doing anything and I wasn't even sure he or the ship's dog had seen us, so I 'chickened out' early. Better safe than sorry!
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  #34  
Old 18th June 2017, 11:29
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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If something did not look right, surely you would be on the VHF asking the intentions of the other ship? Or would you?

Would not this most 'advanced destroyer in the world' be covered in anti radar/stealth panels, and only a good lookout would pick up their navigation lights if they were showing? But the container ship would have been lit up big time on a radar.

I was only an Engineer, but a few things do tend to rub off when the mates were telling their sea stories in the bar.

I note the shown speed for the container ship was 14.5 knots, obviously not full sea speed, they obviously had slowed down either for the busy straight passage or were uncertain of what they were picking up in stealth mode.

Did the USN pull the AIS track off the system as soon as it happened to protect the guilty.
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  #35  
Old 18th June 2017, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
If something did not look right, surely you would be on the VHF asking the intentions of the other ship? Or would you?

Would not this most 'advanced destroyer in the world' be covered in anti radar/stealth panels, and only a good lookout would pick up their navigation lights if they were showing? But the container ship would have been lit up big time on a radar.

I was only an Engineer, but a few things do tend to rub off when the mates were telling their sea stories in the bar.

I note the shown speed for the container ship was 14.5 knots, obviously not full sea speed, they obviously had slowed down either for the busy straight passage or were uncertain of what they were picking up in stealth mode.

Did the USN pull the AIS track off the system as soon as it happened to protect the guilty.

Well, if the AIS was 'working' the ship could have contacting by VHF, but without information there might be a hundred ships that area and you would not who was talking to. So, normally, VHF is not used.

The container ship was doing 14.5 knots. Normal speed (15).

I cannot find the AIS track for the destroyer. The past track information for the ACX CRYSTAL has disappeared as well. :-( The only note I did wrote down was the position where she started to make the U turns at Posn: 34 31 N 139 04 E (just south of Oshima). If we can find the position of the collision will tell is the U turns were before or after the collision. Wish I had written it down... including the times. All I remember was that I remember that she slowed at some point AFTER the U turns. At some other point after the U turns and at some point NE of Oshima, the track was lost.
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  #36  
Old 18th June 2017, 12:45
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Is it normal for warships to use AIS ?

If so that surprises me ! .... But I'm no expert.
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  #37  
Old 18th June 2017, 13:44
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Originally Posted by BobClay View Post
Is it normal for warships to use AIS ?

If so that surprises me ! .... But I'm no expert.

They need AIS to find the rest of the fleet. That is why the Admiral is so pissed that he has lost of his new captains!
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  #38  
Old 18th June 2017, 14:28
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HM ships do use the AIS. Quite easy to find HMS Defender in Plymouth. Where else on a Sunday morning!


The listing as 'HMS DEFENDER'.
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  #39  
Old 18th June 2017, 14:43
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So they switch it on in port. But surely at sea not so, ... what's the point in stealth technology if you're transmitting your position for all to see ... ?
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  #40  
Old 18th June 2017, 15:08
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Stephen Card, what happened before AIS,you would call up 'Vessel on course ###' at range ## what is your intention. With AIS you can state your ship name and in this case state vessel not showing AIS info.

Doesn't this Bridge Team Management and all the checklists and folders of procedures, instead of plain seamanship cover all this.
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  #41  
Old 18th June 2017, 15:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
Stephen Card, what happened before AIS,you would call up 'Vessel on course ###' at range ## what is your intention. With AIS you can state your ship name and in this case state vessel not showing AIS info.

Doesn't this Bridge Team Management and all the checklists and folders of procedures, instead of plain seamanship cover all this.

Before AIS? Keep a good lookout and obey the Rules. Sound your horn.

(From Rule 34 apply to International
and Inland waters with differences noted )
Short blast signals are only sounded in sight
of the other vessel, not in restricted visibility.

One blast. I am altering course to starboard Inland: I intend to leave you on my port side
Two blasts.I am altering course to port.
Three blasts.I am operating astern propulsion
Five or mote shorts blasts. DANGER!

In real close situations, not enough to use VHF. Takes too long to find out who you are talking to.

Also... use Aldis lamp.

AIS? Well, the problem of not being able to identify.
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  #42  
Old 18th June 2017, 15:50
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Thanks Stephen , so if in doubt, blow your horn.
It might wake somebody up.
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  #43  
Old 18th June 2017, 16:47
IMRCoSparks IMRCoSparks is offline  
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The design of the destroyer is that is a "stealth" vessel. Just look at the inclined slab sided architecture. Unless it was hanging out radar reflectors from the sides it would be extremely difficult to see on a merchant ship radar.
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  #44  
Old 18th June 2017, 17:18
nickwilson89 nickwilson89 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachapman View Post
just heard the master of the container ship had left his mobile phone in ziggys bar and was returning to port to retrieve it
Didn't know container ships stayed in port long enough for anyone to get up the road to a bar. Now in the old days I could have given him quite a few good recommendations for when he was next in Nagoya. The Starlight for one, the White Rose for another. Nick
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  #45  
Old 18th June 2017, 17:22
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMRCoSparks View Post
The design of the destroyer is that is a "stealth" vessel. Just look at the inclined slab sided architecture. Unless it was hanging out radar reflectors from the sides it would be extremely difficult to see on a merchant ship radar.

My point exactly, so perhaps a sharp eyed lookout on the mv saw something and the OW tried to do something.
The USN vessel had the plot for sometime and could have taken action or called up the mv.
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  #46  
Old 18th June 2017, 18:48
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Ship on my starboard bow, what are your intentions? Ho hum.
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  #47  
Old 18th June 2017, 19:04
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You are on my starboard side too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #48  
Old 18th June 2017, 19:26
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Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
Thanks Stephen , so if in doubt, blow your horn.
It might wake somebody up.

I was almost caught in the Channel one night. Ships ahead, plenty of ship to my starboard. A rogue ship decided to cross my bow. I was making 23 knots. I phone the E/R and said, "I'm stopping!" Pushed the stop button on the bridge control. Then started the horns... a lot! The rogue passed ahead of my and the other ships to my starboard started to blowing their horns. My own ship came down to about eight knots and started the revs again. The lesson? Well four years before I was on the sea trials on the same ship. I saw it go from Full to Stop and then Full Astern from 24 knots. It was night to know that I could rely on it needed! The idea of trying VHF was useless.
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  #49  
Old 18th June 2017, 19:28
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Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
Doesn't this Bridge Team Management and all the checklists and folders of procedures, instead of plain seamanship cover all this.
Right on. Plain seamanship covers it. Bridge Team Management is quite useless when you alone on the bridge all alone and the QM is out on the other bridge wing!
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  #50  
Old 18th June 2017, 19:41
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With my quite limited experience of the English Channel there is one small thought that occurs to me - Mainly because I have actually seen it happen:

Fast warship sees ferry looming from starboard, he is on an exercise and slowing or even stopping is not an option in the mind of the Captain.
So what does he do - Uses more speed to 'outrun' the merchant vessel.

On one occasion I was present on the bridge and was able to provide a positive ID of the warship. Captain attempted to hail on VHF but no response. Then, as Stephen said - Sound the horn!
The only response then was a noticeably larger wash from the stern as he put on more speed to cross in front.

It was stated by the ferry crew to be a fairly 'regular' event.
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