UNIDENTIFIED "Banana Boat" in N.O., La - Ships Nostalgia
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UNIDENTIFIED "Banana Boat" in N.O., La

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  #1  
Old 29th June 2006, 22:15
Rory Rory is offline
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UNIDENTIFIED "Banana Boat" in N.O., La

Hi All;

Wonder if any of you can identify this 'ancient' United Fruit "Banana Boat" dockside at New Orleans way back when.

It has to be what was termed "Mosquito Boat". Has Norwegian Flag, and strange to see a Stream Type Anchor on the hawser.

Would be interesting to know more about her.

Cheers,
Rory
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  #2  
Old 29th June 2006, 22:52
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gdynia gdynia is offline   SN Supporter
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Rory

It could be the Agnella, Norwegian, 1910 chartered for New Orleans - Livingstone - Puerto Cortez route, 1916 out of banana trade renamed Sollund.
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  #3  
Old 29th June 2006, 23:19
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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It may be hard to pin her down.
United Fruit at times chartered up to fifty or sixty Norwegian ships a year.
The relationship between United Fruit and Norwegian shipping companies lasted for over fifty years.

Bruce C
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  #4  
Old 30th June 2006, 05:26
Rory Rory is offline
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Norwegian Boat

Thanks Guys;

I found something I thought was on shore, but appears to be on the Bridge of this old timer. It is not English, but does not seem to appear as a "Mosquito". However, let us take a "Wild Shot". There was a Mosquito named OREGON, but it does not appear to be that one although this vessel could date from 1890 also.

I don't know if you can see the caeved wood name, but it is ORIGEN.
Rory
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  #5  
Old 30th June 2006, 06:51
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gdynia gdynia is offline   SN Supporter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory_P_OConnor
Thanks Guys;

I found something I thought was on shore, but appears to be on the Bridge of this old timer. It is not English, but does not seem to appear as a "Mosquito". However, let us take a "Wild Shot". There was a Mosquito named OREGON, but it does not appear to be that one although this vessel could date from 1890 also.

I don't know if you can see the caeved wood name, but it is ORIGEN.
Rory
Nearest name they had to that Rory was
Oregon 1890 Norwegian, ex-Sama, 1919 chartered to UFC, sold and renamed St. Thomas.
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  #6  
Old 30th June 2006, 07:46
Rory Rory is offline
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ORIGEN vs OREGON

That's the Wild Shot I spoke of, but could it have happened? I believe it could, and probably did. I know this sort of thing happened all the time with other things like locomotives and such.

All of the chartered vessels are supposed to be accounted for in "Going Bananas", and there is no ORIGEN to be found.
Rory
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  #7  
Old 6th July 2006, 00:15
Knut Knut is offline  
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Banana boat

We have had many strange names on Norwegian ships, but ORIGEN just does not make sense.
Knut
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  #8  
Old 6th July 2006, 17:09
fredkinghorn fredkinghorn is offline
 
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Sure it's not " Konigen?" If my limited German serves me--is it "Prince " in English?

ferd

" and down the glen came McAlpine's men "
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  #9  
Old 6th July 2006, 17:57
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory_P_OConnor
That's the Wild Shot I spoke of, but could it have happened? I believe it could, and probably did. I know this sort of thing happened all the time with other things like locomotives and such.

All of the chartered vessels are supposed to be accounted for in "Going Bananas", and there is no ORIGEN to be found.
Rory
Rory, the 'Origen' is mentioned, in passing, at the bottom of page 275 in "Going Bananas".
Confusingly, in the same paragraph, there is also mention of the 'Oregon'.

A portion of said paragraph reads as follows:
"........The biggest passenger carriers among the "Mosquitoes" were the Norwegian flag ORIGEN, TAUNTON, PRESTON, and ELLIS and the German flag BAKER, BOUND BROOK, BRADFORD and BREWSTER. The OREGON, a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899 had room for 20 passengers..........."

"Going Bananas"
Mark H. Goldberg
American Merchant Marine History Series
Volume III
The American Merchant Marine Museum Foundation
Kings Point, New York
1993

Bruce C
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  #10  
Old 6th July 2006, 18:47
Rory Rory is offline
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The Riddle Resolved?

Bruce you are a genius.

I too have Mark Goldberg's book "Going Bananas", but have really only worked in the section regarding the specs for ships in rear of book.

Taking your quote from page 275:
"........The biggest passenger carriers among the "Mosquitoes" were the Norwegian flag ORIGEN, TAUNTON, PRESTON, and ELLIS and the German flag BAKER, BOUND BROOK, BRADFORD and BREWSTER. The OREGON, a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899 had room for 20 passengers..........."

Then looking at the description that begins with Oregon as above we get:
Oregon, Preston, Ellis, Baker, Bound Brook etc. etc in the same exact order as the first part. Except
ORIGEN has become OREGON

How do you see it, Bruce?

Cheers,
Rory
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  #11  
Old 6th July 2006, 20:23
Knut Knut is offline  
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The mystery deepen.

ORIGEN may have been chartered by UFC, but certainly did not belong to that company. Judging by the funnel and flag it is most likely that ORIGEN`s owners were John P.Pedersen & Son,Christiania.
Then today I found hanging on the wall of a friend dealing in paintings, antiquities and junk, a painting of SS VERONA. With the exception of few minor details, she`s obviously a sister of ORIGEN. However, it turns out that the houseflag is that of Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd. Glasgow and the funnels of that company are similar to those of J.P.P. What gives? Any ideas?Pic of Verona to large to attach so I\ll put her in the gallery.
Knut. https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/attach...tid=5088&stc=1
Funnels & Houseflags.JPG
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  #12  
Old 6th July 2006, 20:28
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Rory, as you say, it's almost certainly an error and the 'Oregon' should read 'Origen'.

A few years back I belonged to another shipping site, rather laid back and friendly, pretty much like this one.
Every so often we'd get an author of maritime books join, and each, without exception, appeared to be jealous of each other's scholarship, somewhat lacking in humor and really touchy when it came to their research.
Mark Goldberg was fun to have onboard, but he was really uptight when it came to historic accuracy, pretty much letting the members know that he dealt in the facts and only the facts.
The book is 600 pages long and I guess a few small errors must be expected. I've others by him in the same series and the research that went into these books is extraordinary. I don't think I'm too mean spirited if I have a very small chuckle over the small slip, knowing his worship of accuracy.

I didn't have a clue as to who or what "Origen" is or was.
Now I know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Bruce C
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  #13  
Old 6th July 2006, 21:44
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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This confusion shows how there is a reliance by some authors/people on hearsay, they see an item in a book or the internet and take it as gospel. Once it appears a couple of times then it suddenly becomes fact and those of you trying to correct it are pushed to one side.

An interesting thing supporting this is that there are two sites, one the NMM who are still wrongly identifying a ship that has been put to rights by members of this site. While investigating anything regarding Bolton Steam Shipping two sites gave reference to the ROMANIC, built 1954 for Bolton S S but a photo of the DRINA, that became the ROMANIC. This was identified as wrong by members of this Forum yet still it is displayed. Obviously they think that if the NMM says this is a photo of a particular ship then they are correct, not those of us who sailed on her.
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  #14  
Old 6th July 2006, 22:29
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Knut, they're similar in appearance, but they are not sisters.
The 'Verona' and her sister, 'Vera', were 1903 products of Burmeister & Wain, measuring just over 1,220GT, 220' x 32, single screw, 3exp, 10 knots. Both were owned by A. F. Klaveness, Oslo.
The 'Origen' came from the Cart yard of the Abercorn Shipbuilding Co., Paisley and was a smaller ship. She was built in 1890 as the 'Sama' for Jacob Christensen and went to Pedersen in 1897. Other name and ownership changes followed.
942GT, 185' x 28', single screw, 3exp, 10 knots.

Above from the now well thumbed "Gong Bananas".

Rory, to add confusion to confusion, the facts in the alphabetical listing for the 'Oregon' do not appear to match the facts on page 275 (a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899)

Bruce C
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  #15  
Old 7th July 2006, 01:37
Rory Rory is offline
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Hi Bruce and Kurt;

Based on the photo I submitted as an attachment for the UFCo Charter ship. I would like to know where the accommodations for twenty passengers are located, if she ever turned out to be "The Oregon". This vessel does not appear to have too much space in the Main Castle for much of anything. Does seem to carry four lifeboats for that early time [the photo was taken in 1910 New Orleans].

I'm with you, Bruce, in that we seem to have two very different vessels in this instance. Now, I am only vaguely familiar with the highly praised "Starke-Schell Registers". Perhaps someone with access to these registers might be able to set us straight on this or these vessels.

Regarding errors that appear in well researched material, I think this is quite common. There is no doubt that the 600+ pages of Mr. Goldberg’s “Going Bananas” is a great reference work, but there will always be “typos”, and as “Baltic Wal” pointed out, misleading information that appears as fact.

Cheers,
Rory
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  #16  
Old 7th July 2006, 20:06
jock paul jock paul is offline  
 
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Unidentified Banana Boat

What a lovely old vessel, full of character. Can anyone tell me why there was a "turtle back" on the main deck at the counter stern? was it usual on these ships?
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  #17  
Old 8th July 2006, 10:50
Rory Rory is offline
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Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd

Knut;

Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd was a division of the Parent United Fruit, and they placed many vessels under The Red Ensign through it. At least that is my understanding. There were many subsidiaries of the UFCo, and I have put together some of the known House flags and Funnels.
Rory
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  #18  
Old 8th July 2006, 13:59
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Rory, I found the photograph included in a spectacular 1910(?) panorama of the United Fruit New Orleans docks. Well worth taking a look--Windows Picture & Fax Viewer (XP) blows the scene up nicely and you can get a close up view of the Origen's details, including a clear view of the nameboard.
Looks like two of the Workman, Clark, Glasgow registered Tropical Fruit ships flanking her. [
http://tinyurl.com/frypl
(#13 on the list)

Tropical, I think, was what you could call a flag of convenience, in many ways similar to the American ownership of the White Star and other passenger lines. United Fruit gained the advantage of the largest and best shipbuilding and manning source in the world combined with the lower costs of British yards, operating costs, registry and manpower.
Later, by special legislation in Washington at the outbreak of the war in Europe in 1914, the ships were able to transfer to United States registry.

Jock, I think the turtleback was originally to protect the wheelsman from rough or following seas. Probably continued in use to protect crew or passenger from the same conditions.You see it quite often in photos of smaller ships built in the last half of the nineteenth century

Bruce C

Change the URL

Last edited by Bruce Carson; 10th July 2006 at 13:41..
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  #19  
Old 8th July 2006, 19:42
Rory Rory is offline
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UFCo Ship Identification

Bruce,
That is a spectacular panorama shot. Do the two other larger vessels look like “5,000 Tonners” by Workman Clark & Co. Belfast, to you? Pity the photographer did not include their names for us.

On another note about UFCo ship identification, I have a question about a much more modern UFC [or whatever they call themselves nowadays] group of ships. They seem to be Honduras or Panama Flagged.vessels, and I have some particulars on a couple of them.

“Omoa-1965” is listed as ex German? “Lemoncore” [by Tanker from SN]
“Condata-1968” [UFC Boat?] is ex “Tangerinecore” [says so in caption of photo image]
“Olancho-1965” I have nothing on this one except it sure looks like a ‘Core Boat’
Then there is a list of ‘Core’ boats with later companies and names, but none I find for “Olancho” or other UFC ownership or charters. Many of these are shown in Sven Salen colors. We were always told when I worked for Salen that “Thing” above and below the S on the funnel was a Banana; and UFCo had something financially to do with Salen.
The other ‘Core Ships’;

AVOCADOCORE-1965
BANANACORE-1965
LEMONCORE-1964
MANDARINCORE-1968
MANGOCORE-1965
PERSIMMONCORE-1968
SABRACORE-1968
TANGERINECORE-1968
GUAVACORE-1969
NECTARINECORE-1970
NAVELINACORE-1970
SULTANACORE-1970

Any info for further UFC ships of this group will be welcomed.
Cheers,
Rory
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  #20  
Old 10th July 2006, 13:36
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Rory, they have to be two of the thirteen 5,000 tonners, ten of which were built by 1910.
I don't think the first three (Cartago, Parismina and Heredia) had lifeboats at the stern as these two do, but that leaves seven to pick from.
Can't find another picture of a GWF vessel with the uptake showing above the funnel casing, as in the forward ship.
The long line of truly handsome United Fruit ships, evolutionary in design, from Workman, Clark must represent a high point in the relationship between an owner and the builders.

Bruce C
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  #21  
Old 10th July 2006, 21:16
Jim S Jim S is offline   SN Supporter
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U F Co ships

Rory,
Omoa, Olancho, Orica etc are traditional Empressa de Hondurena names.
The extensive list of ships with the suffix "Core" is new to me.
In 1979 the management of Fyffes ships was transferred to Salen UK Ship Management - this arrangement lasted only a couple of years and was not entirely satisfactory. Ship management reverted to Fyffes Ship Management.
United Brands held the purse strings but had no interest in ship owning the relationship between them and subsidiaries such as Fyffes was often strained.
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  #22  
Old 12th July 2006, 08:51
Rory Rory is offline
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"5M Tonner" and "Core Boats"

Hi Bruce.

If you take a gander at page 314 of “Going Bananas” I think we have our ship = SS Heredia. Note the uplift extended beyond the funnel casing in the picture. Also in the ‘second’ image of the Panorama [you do have numero dose?] I feel I can read the first letter of name under the stern “H”. What do you make of it in your large scan?

One item that has just come to my attention while browsing the book was the influence of the Hamburg America Line designs for what became E&F Changuinola and Motagua upon “The Elite Class” of UFCo. Vessels from Workman Clark.

I have another question for someone with knowledge of ship registration, and the country flag that goes with it. Is it possible to have a ship registered in LONDON, UK, but be owned by a Dutch Co. and fly the Dutch Flag? I ask this because I stumbled upon a photo of the Dutch SS Marowijne-1908 by Workman Clark. It is written that this [and her sister] were registered in London. However, in the photo she is proudly flying the Houseflag of W.M.I. and the Royal Dutch Flag at stern.

Hi Jim;

All of these vessels were built in Norway.
This one sure had a strange name while with Chiqueta
BV 19d “CONDATA” (EMPRESA HONDURENA DE VAPORES) 1969

Marcus Berger supplied the following regarding one of them.
LOA: 148,83m. Lpp: 135,31m. B: 20,07m. D: 9,164m. G.T.: 8.134. DWT: 10.023.
1968 AS Bergens Mek. Verksteder -Bergen. Yard No. 464.
EX-TANGERINECORE, 1968 (Nombre Original/Original Name). EX-CONDATA, 1976.
LUCKY, 1988.
Desguazado en Port Alang, India el 12/05/1993 - Broken up in Port Alang, India in 12/05/1993

Lemoncore would have had basically the same specs as above

The other one I mentioned for EMPRESA HONDURENA DE VAPORES from this group [there may have been more] I cannot identify.

Cheers,
Rory
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  #23  
Old 12th July 2006, 19:11
Jim S Jim S is offline   SN Supporter
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Identity of UF Co ship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory_P_OConnor
Hi Bruce.

If you take a gander at page 314 of “Going Bananas” I think we have our ship = SS Heredia. Note the uplift extended beyond the funnel casing in the picture. Also in the ‘second’ image of the Panorama [you do have numero dose?] I feel I can read the first letter of name under the stern “H”. What do you make of it in your large scan?

One item that has just come to my attention while browsing the book was the influence of the Hamburg America Line designs for what became E&F Changuinola and Motagua upon “The Elite Class” of UFCo. Vessels from Workman Clark.

I have another question for someone with knowledge of ship registration, and the country flag that goes with it. Is it possible to have a ship registered in LONDON, UK, but be owned by a Dutch Co. and fly the Dutch Flag? I ask this because I stumbled upon a photo of the Dutch SS Marowijne-1908 by Workman Clark. It is written that this [and her sister] were registered in London. However, in the photo she is proudly flying the Houseflag of W.M.I. and the Royal Dutch Flag at stern.

Hi Jim;

All of these vessels were built in Norway.
This one sure had a strange name while with Chiqueta
BV 19d “CONDATA” (EMPRESA HONDURENA DE VAPORES) 1969

Marcus Berger supplied the following regarding one of them.
LOA: 148,83m. Lpp: 135,31m. B: 20,07m. D: 9,164m. G.T.: 8.134. DWT: 10.023.
1968 AS Bergens Mek. Verksteder -Bergen. Yard No. 464.
EX-TANGERINECORE, 1968 (Nombre Original/Original Name). EX-CONDATA, 1976.
LUCKY, 1988.
Desguazado en Port Alang, India el 12/05/1993 - Broken up in Port Alang, India in 12/05/1993

Lemoncore would have had basically the same specs as above

The other one I mentioned for EMPRESA HONDURENA DE VAPORES from this group [there may have been more] I cannot identify.

Cheers,
Rory
Rory,
Will be interested in identification of fairly large UF Co illustrated. Her style of masts and the rigging arrangement of the derricks (no preventer wire linking derrick head) looks of British origin.

Jim S
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  #24  
Old 12th July 2006, 19:35
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Rory, I've been staring at that damned picture till my eyes have crossed.
I think that both ships belong to the second group of three, which were the only ones built, I believe, with two boats on the upper deck, one aft and trees on both masts.
The first group don't appear ever to have an aft lifeboat and the pictures of the third group show no crosstrees on the masts. The other ships were built after 1910.
The ship astern of the 'Origen' has a longish name, so that would leave out the 'Atenas'.
On the forward ship, I can make out "Glasgow" but the name eludes me. I can't even tell how many letters make up the name and it must be an optical allusion, but it doesn't appear to be centered over the port of registry.

I did notice the funnel of the 'Heredia' in the photo and thought that it had what I think was called an "Admiralty Cap". I wondered if some of the earlier ships of the class were originally built with this feature, only to have the funnel changed at an early date in their careers. These ships appear to have had more small alterations made to them over the years than most vessels.

All of the above, is, of course, subject to change.

http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuil...ip.asp?id=3570
(Admiralty caps (?) on the Anchor liner 'Caledonia' of 1925.)

To hell with United Fruit!
I going to pick the best fruit in the world---the first home grown tomato of the season.

Bruce C
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Last edited by Bruce Carson; 12th July 2006 at 21:38..
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  #25  
Old 14th July 2006, 19:57
Jim S Jim S is offline   SN Supporter
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Identity of UF Co ship

Rory,
Like Bruce I have gone cross eyed trying to de-cypher the name on the stern of the UF Co ship with the coaling barge alongside.
Bruce thinks the port of registry is Glasgow - I have almost convinced myself it is Belfast.
I think it is fair to assume that it is one or other that would mean either built at Stephens of Linthouse or Workman Clark Belfast.
The ensign looks like a British Red Ensign. The design of mast and the manner of cargo gear rigging looks Brirish
She is a fair sized ship (for a fruit ship) probably around 6 to 7000 grt.
She has a large amount of accommodation - three decks, probably around 100 passengers.
The two upper decks that are sheeted -in for the coaling operation reminded me of the four "A -Class" of around 1912 CHAGRES, PATIA, BAYANO and PATUCA of which PATUCA was the sole survivor of WW 1. However the profile shown in Duncan Haws book and a photo I have seen in another book shows PATUCA with no ports on hull ("C-Deck") and with rails and not plated bullwarks as in your photo. She also does not show the two ventilators just aft of the accommodation. - I had almost convinced myself that the name on stern was PATUCA too !!
To recap
1/ British built
2/ approx 6000 - 7000 grt
3/ approx 100 passengers
4/ probably twin screw

I dont think that the two levels of accommodation above main deck level "A and B Decks" was repeated on any E & F ships until the Golfito of 1949 and Camito of 1956.

I hope that someone somewhere can solve this mystery

Jim S

ps I even printed your photo at maximum resolution onto photo paper - still no luck in ID

Last edited by Jim S; 14th July 2006 at 19:59.. Reason: add to texr
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