Heaving To query - Page 2 - Ships Nostalgia
11:07

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Heaving To query

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #26  
Old 23rd May 2015, 16:14
joebuckham's Avatar
joebuckham joebuckham is offline  
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1955 - 1999
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
Is this anything to do with the "Equipment Number" - never quite grasped this piece of maritime esoterica.
long time since I was au fait with the likes of equipment numbers and after a bit of a delve the only ref I can find is on a yacht fitting out site
Required Power
In general, windlasses and their power system should be capable of lifting the anchor and all its rode (chain and rope) if deployed so that it hangs suspended in deep water. This task should be within the windlass' rated working pull, not its maximum pull.
A rule of the thumb for the required working power can be found in windlass catalogues:

working load [W] = 4 * total weight of ground tackle [kg].
__________________
lifes a reach, and then you gybe
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 23rd May 2015, 16:25
Split Split is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by frangio View Post
Only thing I can think of is a Sea Anchor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_anchor

Used one on an exercise with a ship's lifeboat and never heard of them being used for ships but was only at sea a couple of years.
A favourite question by an unnamed oral examiner needed the only answer that satisfied him.

Q What to do in a howling gale in the North Sea, if the engines broke down.

A. Unship the anchors from the cable, then let the cable drag along the bottom. This would keep the ship's head into the wind.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 23rd May 2015, 23:32
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 2009
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Bentley View Post
One of our Radio Officer's Association members has submitted a short article in which he describes a ship he was on heaving to in a Typhoon. As far as he can remember they lowered both anchors down but did not let them go right out but used them to provide a braking effect. I have looked through several manuals and not seen anything suggesting such a procedure. Hence coming to the professionals for advice! Thank you, Cheers, Roger
Roger, you’re not mistaken. Subject to access fwd, it is (or used to be), known practice to lower an anchor if a ship lost propulsion whilst in bad weather, deep sea. The drag of anchor and cable (through the water), would assist in keeping the ship from being entirely beam on to the weather.
(I think Class rules require windlass machinery to be capable of lifting anchor, plus 45 fathoms of cable, if/as correctly sized for the vessel).
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 24th May 2015, 00:33
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is online now   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Split View Post
A favourite question by an unnamed oral examiner needed the only answer that satisfied him.

Q What to do in a howling gale in the North Sea, if the engines broke down.

A. Unship the anchors from the cable, then let the cable drag along the bottom. This would keep the ship's head into the wind.
Thank heavens the man was safely ashore and not in command. On the smallest of commercial vessels this would surely be a drydock or floating crane job. I thought that the only way an anchor could have any purchase was with the cable on top so unshipping the anchor in such circumstances would surely be a waste of effort?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 24th May 2015, 06:36
Keltic Star's Avatar
Keltic Star Keltic Star is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1958 - Present
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
My location
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Split View Post
A favourite question by an unnamed oral examiner needed the only answer that satisfied him.

Q What to do in a howling gale in the North Sea, if the engines broke down.

A. Unship the anchors from the cable, then let the cable drag along the bottom. This would keep the ship's head into the wind.
1. I wonder what Master would send the crew onto the focs'l to man handle anchors in a howling gale at the risk of losing them over the side

2. If the ship was in deep water with the cable off the bottom, she would still lie beam to the seas and by now minus a few of the crew who had gone over the side trying to un-ship the anchors.

3. Not being an engineer, I stand to be corrected, but a probable cause of engine breakdown in heavy seas could be a fuel problem so the generators might also be down thus preventing power to the windlass to un-ship the anchors.

4. If the cable snarled up on a submerged object enough of the foredeck could be torn away to breach the collision bulkhead. Whoops.

The correct answer to the examiners question should have been:

Dish out the toilet paper and pray that one had done the proper stability calculations before leaving port.

Obviously this examiner was appointed due to connections rather than his ability as a seaman.
__________________
No to Canada-EU Trade Agreement
Look what happened to Britain
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 24th May 2015, 10:38
Basil's Avatar
Basil Basil is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1962 - 1964
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,921
joebuckham
Quote:
windlasses and their power system should be capable of lifting the anchor and all its rode
When I tried that to restow the yacht chain locker, the barsteward couldn't handle it and the electric windlass thermal trip* kept cutting out so I had to wait, reset and wind some more in.
There WAS manual reversion but it was going to be tough going.
Finally got easier as the weight came off the windlass as less chain hung below.

* or it could have been the cb - happened years ago - won't happen again
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 24th May 2015, 11:35
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is online now   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
KS. Perhaps he was considered safer as an examiner than as a Master. Intrigued at the thought that prayer might in some way correct a poorly loaded/ballasted vessel - at least the examiner did not add this craziness to his model answer.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 24th May 2015, 12:05
Duncan112's Avatar
Duncan112 Duncan112 is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1981 - 2003
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
My location
Posts: 3,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
Thank heavens the man was safely ashore and not in command. On the smallest of commercial vessels this would surely be a drydock or floating crane job. I thought that the only way an anchor could have any purchase was with the cable on top so unshipping the anchor in such circumstances would surely be a waste of effort?
Whilst the cable is broken for using a buoy mooring if the Kenter shackle hasn't been overhauled for some time it usually means hauling the gas axe up to apply some judicious heat (or on one memorable occasion, having run out of gas lighting a dunnage fire under the offending link). The thought of attempting this in the teeth of a howling gale makes me glad of my warm engineroom - even if we were trying to fix the broken engine.....
__________________
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

George Santayana (1863 - 1952)
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 24th May 2015, 12:57
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 2009
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 868
As noted by others, many/most poor weather situations wouldn’t permit lowering of anchor/anchors. But like the OP, I know of a case (and have no reason whatever to doubt the account), where this was done. The vessel had lost propulsion and was beam on to the sea. The decision to lower an anchor, accepting all risk, (less than the alternative), was taken due to the vessel taking on a synchronous roll. The action was considered effective.

On separate note re windlass machinery, the requirement isn’t to lift the anchor together with all cable, but a minimum length of cable. Windlass must be capable of running on full load for a minimum of 30 minutes to do this. (& must also be capable of short period overload due to shock loading).
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 24th May 2015, 13:14
Hugh Ferguson's Avatar
Hugh Ferguson Hugh Ferguson is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
My location
Posts: 5,535
[QUOTE=Cisco;1424290]You walk your anchors right out in deep water and you may have a job getting them back.

I've been on ships with small 'wave oil' tanks in the focsle plumbed into the hawse pipes so that you could spread oil on the water to lessen the sea...[/QUOTE]

You surely would ! I can only recall being "hove to" on one occasion at 36 South in the Southern Ocean. It was done by turning away from an East going course and bringing the sea about 15/20 degrees on the Port bow with engines at slow ahead.
That was fine until the Master-evidentally worried about wasted coal consumption-came on the bridge at 10pm. and attempted to get the ship back on course. That sobered him up and, with difficulty, he got her back to the hove to position. (the 2nd mate told me at midnight that he had been thrown out of his bunk!).
The storm had blown so much sea water into the air that, when I came off watch and saw my face in a mirror, I thought I was looking at a ghost; my face was caked with salt!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 24th May 2015, 13:45
Split Split is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
Thank heavens the man was safely ashore and not in command. On the smallest of commercial vessels this would surely be a drydock or floating crane job. I thought that the only way an anchor could have any purchase was with the cable on top so unshipping the anchor in such circumstances would surely be a waste of effort?
Well, that is not the only one that I heard. War built ships carried a spare propeller on the foredeck. This raised the question of how to put it on to the shaft of a ship that had lost the one in use. You would not believe the answer, which was detailed. It involved putting the ship well down by the head and floating the spare prop on a raft made with hatchboards.

Getting it off the raft and on to the shaft, I've forgotten. That, presumibly, was the engineers' job and God help them if they dropped it!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 24th May 2015, 14:59
randcmackenzie randcmackenzie is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
My location
Posts: 1,382
When Asiafreighter was broken down in the North Atlantic, we had a Force 12 or better for a couple of days.

We lay beam on to the seas and were actually quite comfortable, rising and falling over the seas, but not rolling too violently.

On the other hand, I recall Euroliner rolling at least 47 degrees when both engines shut down in a gale.

This was a design fault, as the oil in the engine luboil tanks could slosh away from the shutdown switches.

The defect was corrected at guarantee D/D and in the sisters before delivery.

I say at least, because that was as far as the inclinometer would go.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 24th May 2015, 15:46
sidsal sidsal is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,429
I was 3rd mate on an Anglo American tanker just after ww2 - the F J WOLFE - taken from the Germans as reparations after ww1. She would lose about 200 tons of oil on a passage - particularly a rough one where the ship was moving about. On passage once down the Arabian sea in the SW Monsoon I noticed that there were two small tankers following in the smooth water caused by our leaking oil. Made their passage quite smooth !
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 24th May 2015, 19:20
joebuckham's Avatar
joebuckham joebuckham is offline  
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1955 - 1999
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
joebuckham
When I tried that to restow the yacht chain locker, the barsteward couldn't handle it and the electric windlass thermal trip* kept cutting out so I had to wait, reset and wind some more in.
There WAS manual reversion but it was going to be tough going.
Finally got easier as the weight came off the windlass as less chain hung below.

* or it could have been the cb - happened years ago - won't happen again
hi basil, never gave it much thought and never heard it mentioned,just thought that if you had some thing so heavy, that could be lowered or accidentally dropped to its bitter end the rules would be such that you would have the wherewithal to retrieve it
__________________
lifes a reach, and then you gybe
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 24th May 2015, 21:15
kewl dude's Avatar
kewl dude kewl dude is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Other Merchant Fleets
Department: Engineering
Active: 1960 - 1976
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,518
The US Coast Guard creates, writes, publishes and promulgates, investigates infractions and prosecutes offenders of the rules US commercial sailors live by. I have here the stack of USCG publications I used preparing to write my Chief Engineer license in New York the fall of 1974.

80 pages CG-191, May 1, 1968.
Rules and Regulations for Licensing and Certificating of Merchant Marine Personnel Subchapter B. (Title 46, CFR, Parts 10, 12, 14, 15, and 16)

18 pages 1944 pamphlet from US Bureau of Mines.
Construction, Care, and Use of Permissible Flame Safety Lamps

100 pages CG-108, April 1, 1972. Rules and Regulations for Military Explosives and Hazardous Munitions. (Excerpts from Title 46 C.F.R. Part 146)

180 pages CG-115, June 1, 1973. Marine Engineering Regulations Subchapter F. Materials, Construction, Installation, Inspection, and Maintenance of Boilers, Unfired Pressure Vessels, Appurtenances, Piping, Welding and Brazing. (Title 46, C.F.R., Parts 50 to 63 inclusive)

150 pages CG-259, June 1, 1971. Electrical Engineering Regulations Subchapter J (Title 46, C.F.R., Parts 110 to 113, Inclusive)

150 pages CG-257, September 1, 1964. Rules and Regulations for Cargo and Miscellaneous Vessels Subchapter I (Title 46, C.F.R., Parts 90 to 98, Inclusive)

160 pages CG-123, January 1, 1973. Rules and Regulations for Tank Vessels Subchapter D. (Title 46, C.F.R., Parts 30 to 40 inclusive)
(Including Pollution Prevention Regulations, 33 CFR)

40 pages CG-329, July 1, 1968. Fire Fighting Manual for Tank Vessels.

All you had to do was go to a USCG Office of Marine Inspection, show your license and they happily would give us for free the latest versions of any and all USCG regulations we desired.

We all were expected to commit all of this information to memory.

The years I wrote license tests the USCG was phasing in multiple choice questions but my memory tells me that was not for major test areas.

We always said that we 'wrote' a license since that is what we did. Write by hand with a USCG black ink pen on lined, grammar school, learning to write, paper. My writing sucked so I print everything. Writing many, many pages of answers were normal.

My memory tells me I turned in 144 hand written pages in answer to the question: What would you, as Chief Engineer do, before, during and after a shipyard dry-docking and overhaul. Nailed it.

The two examiners, one deck, one engine, were kids who had graduated USCG Academy June 1974 and this their first assignment. I got into it with that kid who knocked me down ten points for my description of how a propeller works.

I went to the OCMI - Officer in Charge of Marine Inspection. He read my answer and the USCG answer and said to me "I can see where you are coming from but prove it in a published text."

Saturday November 2, 1974 at Marine Bookshop "Everything Nautical", One Broadway, New York 4, NY I bought two books. Introduction to Steel Shipbuilding, Elijah Baker III, 1953 and Modern Ships, John H. La Dage, 1965. Both describe as I did that the prop is a water pump impeller and as such it creates a low-pressure area on the forward side of the blade. While pumping -- pushing -- that water with the aft side of the blade.

The USCG answer said the blade just pushes the ship through the water.

It was not a big thing but it was my last question and I was looking at a perfect score. I would have had a 90, 70 is passing, but I wanted that perfect 100.

Greg Hayden
Vista - San Diego area - California
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 24th May 2015, 23:44
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 2009
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 868
Bad luck and commiserations on finding yourself in front of such inept examiners Greg. (Maybe if you’d included the effect of a Kort nozzle in your answer they’d have understood better).

Over this side of the pond, I was more fortunate with examiners. For my Second’s ticket (not sure of Stateside equivalent), the examiner was a guy of considerable experience and made me work very hard. Had to resist kissing him when he told me I’d passed, (think a quick reverse of decision might have resulted otherwise).

By the time I bothered to go up for Chief’s, it was about 10 years later. The examiner was, of course, also a very knowledgeable man. Difference this time being that he was about the same age as me. Felt more like a comparison of experience than an exam. (Still could have kissed him on getting the result though).
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 25th May 2015, 06:08
Keltic Star's Avatar
Keltic Star Keltic Star is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1958 - Present
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
My location
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
KS. Perhaps he was considered safer as an examiner than as a Master. Intrigued at the thought that prayer might in some way correct a poorly loaded/ballasted vessel - at least the examiner did not add this craziness to his model answer.
The prayer was to hope that one had done the proper stability calculations not that prayer would correct miscalculations.
__________________
No to Canada-EU Trade Agreement
Look what happened to Britain
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 25th May 2015, 07:15
pilot's Avatar
pilot pilot is offline  
Senior Member
Active: 1963 - 2011
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,119
KS. Can also recall the North Sea cunning plan "walk out the cables" from Master's. Can also recall the examiner, Capt. Dyston.(sp?) in Hull advising me during Master's Orals that he was asking what I would do not what I'd read in a book or what a lecturer had told me. Rgds.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 25th May 2015, 10:20
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is online now   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keltic Star View Post
The prayer was to hope that one had done the proper stability calculations not that prayer would correct miscalculations.
Of course! Prayer trumps the passage of time. Might be better to get checking while you still have the wherewithal to pump ballast.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 31st May 2015, 12:24
Waighty's Avatar
Waighty Waighty is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1966 - 2009
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,292
After reading all the posts on this subject I can't for the life of me see how lowering the anchors out to their full extent when in deep water can help a vessel in a hove-to condition; any possible drag factor would be minimal at best. The only time I would have walked out both anchors would be where my 'dead' ship was heading for the beach with some chance of the anchors preventing the grounding or minimising its impact.

Tongue in cheek comment -I dread to think of what size of sea anchor one would need to assist a large cargo ship in a hove-to condition!!!

By the way I discovered recently that what I always knew as Colza Oil (wave oil in a lifeboat) was, and presumably still is, Rape Seed Oil. No doubt some folk knew this anyway but it's taken me many years to learn that. I'll bet even Dog F**k (of lifeboat ticket fame) knew that. I mention this as the only sea anchors I ever came across were the ones in lifeboats. Probably not part of today's lifeboat kit.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 31st May 2015, 14:29
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 2009
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waighty View Post
......I mention this as the only sea anchors I ever came across were the ones in lifeboats. Probably not part of today's lifeboat kit.
Still very much an equipment requirement as far as I'm aware Waighty.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 31st May 2015, 16:16
chadburn chadburn is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,573
I think this one needs a Drag Chute.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (91.7 KB, 34 views)
__________________
Geordie Chief

From Grey Funnel to any Funnel, just show him/ me the money Mabel
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 31st May 2015, 16:24
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,765
Lifejackets are one thing, but crash helmets are quite another.

When it comes to the point that hard hats might be appropriate for any form of seafaring, something is surely lost?

Nobody admires the work of the rescue services/RNLI more than I do and, for sure, I appreciate their needs. But as a matter of nostalgia? Have we gone past our stop, Mother?
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 31st May 2015, 16:48
Stephen J. Card's Avatar
Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuckham View Post
I thought that the windlass was fitted to be of such power as to retrieve the anchor and attached chain's total length if lowered out to it's maximum scope and this as a save working load and not a maximum weight.

I doubt it.

A couple of years ago the HAL pass vessel VEENDAM (55,000 grt) suffered major bow damage during a hurricane in the South Atlantic. One anchor ran away with the full length of cable. The windlass was in perfect working condition, but could not to lift the weight of cable.

The master looked for a sea mount some miles away. He steamed until he was able to drag into some shallow water.... enough to stop and lift a few links at a time. Over a day or two he was able to continue this over and over again until he was in shallow water and the rest was lying on the bottom and was retrieve the whole cable and anchor.

Here of a few photos during the storm and shot of the damaged bow during repair. Some side doors in the enclosed mooring deck were carried away and the space flooded.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg VEENDAM BOW REPAIR (2).jpg (113.0 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg VEDM STORM 1 (2).jpg (6.4 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg VEDM STORM 2.jpg (6.2 KB, 74 views)

Last edited by Stephen J. Card; 31st May 2015 at 16:51..
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 31st May 2015, 17:02
Stephen J. Card's Avatar
Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,305
Split.... Yes, this as I remember being told up for 2/M....

".... in shallow water, break the cable on deck and run cable over the bow and pay out cable out to steady your head."
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Query Diljith Say Hello 5 19th August 2010 15:11
Query duquesa Looking for Old Shipmates 4 22nd November 2006 22:42
say hello query Charles compass Say Hello 18 16th September 2005 18:22



Support SN


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.