Argentinean Submarine ARA San Juan is lost with 37 men on board. - Page 2 - Ships Nostalgia
18:11

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Argentinean Submarine ARA San Juan is lost with 37 men on board.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #26  
Old 24th November 2017, 15:16
Mad Landsman's Avatar
Mad Landsman Mad Landsman is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
Anyone know if they carry HTP fuelled torpedoes?
SST-4 Seal. Electrically powered, wire guided.
Made in Germany.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 24th November 2017, 22:54
surveychile surveychile is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,611
Las reparaciones y mantenimiento del submarino para prolongar por 30 años más su vida útil fueron efectuadas por un astillero en Buenos Aires por ser así mucho más económicas o lisa y llananamente más baratas, la pregunta del millón de dolares en esta situación es, vino personal técnico del astillero alemán a supervisar toda esta operación?

The repairs and maintenance of the submarine to prolong her useful life for 30 years were carried out by a shipyard in Buenos Aires for being so much cheaper that to carry out all this operation in Germany, the question of the million dollars in this situation is, did technical personnel of the German shipyard come to Argentina to supervise all this operation? I personly think that the answer is self explanatory.

Regards

Tomi.

Last edited by surveychile; 24th November 2017 at 22:58..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 24th November 2017, 23:11
BobClay's Avatar
BobClay BobClay is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Radio Officer
Active: 1965 - 1986
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
My location
Posts: 5,250
I certainly don't want to question the quality of the work without more knowledge, but there is certainly little room for error with regard to submarines.

The Kursk, Thresher, Scorpion and a host of others over decades clearly shows the almost unimaginably difficult conditions these vessels operate under.

I can only feel heart break for the families of those lost. Without wanting to sound callous, let's hope it was quick.
__________________
"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense."
Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 24th November 2017, 23:44
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
For those of us, who don't know what those poor souls on the missing submarine are (hopefully, still) experiencing, here is a documentary about life as a submariner. I'm posting this so that we may understand:



Taff

Last edited by tsell; 24th November 2017 at 23:53..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 25th November 2017, 01:15
BobClay's Avatar
BobClay BobClay is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Radio Officer
Active: 1965 - 1986
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
My location
Posts: 5,250
Excellent film. I've always been fascinated by submarines. If you think about it, submariners are the first kinds of astronauts, although I suppose they should be called aquanauts (please substitute a better word for it if you can.)

They go into a totally hostile environment (which all those members of this site will be aware of, from the top anyway) where there is no room for error.

Modern nuclear subs are really quite frightening. Think about this, a modern strategic nuclear submarine carries more firepower than all the bombs and shells fired throughout World War Two and World War One combined. Whatever way you look at that, it is utterly mind boggling.

Remember that adage from the Cold War (which now seems a bit dated, there's a thought ) 'The three most powerful men in the world. The President of the USA, the Premier of the USSR, and the Captain of a strategic nuclear submarine.'

All this achieved in the space of less than a century. Pretty scary stuff in anybody's book.
__________________
"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense."
Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 25th November 2017, 01:40
5036's Avatar
5036 5036 is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClay View Post
Ok, thanks for that. I would have thought opening up the pressure hull of an old submarine and then putting it back together was very specialised work. But I'm no expert on subs. Perhaps we should be grateful they didn't retro - nuclear it. But that's not much compensation for the bereaved families.
It is important to let both sides get tacky before putting the faces back together.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 25th November 2017, 02:05
spongebob's Avatar
spongebob spongebob is offline
Spongebob
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1957 - 1961
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,820
The inherent dangers of submarine operation are high enough without the added risk of unreliable plant and equipment on board.
Australia's Collins Class Boats have had their fair share of operational troubles which probably reflect the lack of willing crews

Bob
__________________
spongebob,
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 26th November 2017, 02:29
YM-Mundrabilla's Avatar
YM-Mundrabilla YM-Mundrabilla is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,847
Given the problems (real or otherwise) with the Collins class submarines I fear the loss of one of these boats and also the ability of the RAN to deal with it.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 27th November 2017, 20:09
KEITHMAR KEITHMAR is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
My location
Posts: 954
They have APPARENTLY LOCATED THE SAN JUAN !! .... A t a depth of 400mtrs !!.....Not looking Good??
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 27th November 2017, 21:28
KEITHMAR KEITHMAR is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
My location
Posts: 954
The above News has just been NEGATED by the Buenos Aires news site FAKE NEWS and Rumours , People,.... Sorry!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 28th November 2017, 14:30
Binnacle's Avatar
Binnacle Binnacle is offline  
Senior Member
Department: Deck
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,927
Argentina missing sub: Water entered snorkel causing short circuit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42151569
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 28th November 2017, 18:53
Duncan112's Avatar
Duncan112 Duncan112 is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1981 - 2003
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
My location
Posts: 3,441
IIRC a failed Snorkel was the cause of the loss of HMS Affray
__________________
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

George Santayana (1863 - 1952)
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 2nd December 2017, 01:22
surveychile surveychile is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,611
Translation of the last news received from the present status of the submarine ARA San Juan

The Navy reported that the search for the crew of the submarine ARA San Juan ended
In this way there is no hope of finding the sailors alive.
The raking will continue to find the remains of the ship

15 days after the disappearance of the submarine ARA San Juan, the Argentine Navy confirmed that "there will be no rescue of people", so there is no hope that the 44 crew members are alive.

Capt. Enrique Balbi, spokesman of the Navy, read the "press release number 50", in which he reported the completion of SAR (Search and rescue) case to go to the search phase. According to him, the SAR aims to "save people, in order to preserve human life", something that was finally ruled out.

After having traveled a million nautical miles and after analyzing that area at a depth of 300 meters without positive results, added to the fact that the last communication of the crew was two weeks ago, the Navy made this decision to change the protocol of Search and rescue by only search of the ship. However, if the vessel is more than 500 meters deep, all operations will be terminated.

In this way, the crew will no longer be sought alive. This was resolved by Rear Admiral Luis Enrique López Mazzeo, the military man in charge of the Mar del Plata naval base, who was the one who issued the last known statement about the problem in the batteries suffered by the ARA San Juan.

Balbi explained that "no evidence of shipwreck was found in the explored areas nor was there any contact with the submarine or its rafts".

In the last hours it had been noticed that several of the ships that participated in the tasks in the San Jorge Gulf were returning to Comodoro Rivadavia. Among them the Atlantis, of the United States, the Sophie Siem, of Norway and the Didi-K, of Uruguay.

Lopez Mazzeo, in charge of the Training and Arming Command of the Navy (CEOAA), will sign a new notice advising the 18 countries that participated in the raking of the modality change of the operations.

From now on, the international agreement that was in force while searching for the crew alive was concluded, so the nations that had been collaborating with Argentina will decide if they continue participating in the tasks to try to rescue the remains of the ARA San Juan. According to this means, the US Navy will return to the United States.

The ARA San Juan was being searched since November 15, when at 7.30 in the morning the ship's last communication with the naval base was recorded from the height of the San Jorge Gulf, some 432 kilometers from the coast. Three hours later, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO) recorded an "unusual signal near the last known position" of the "ARA San Juan". The noise detected by the organism was similar to that detected by the United States, which recorded a "hydroacoustic anomaly" in the same place where the submarine was last reported.

On November 16 and 17 the search operation was activated with two surface naves of the Argentine Navy equipped with sonar and two aircraft, first, and then the collaboration with logistical support from Chile, Brazil, Peru, the United States and Great was added. Brittany.

On Saturday, November 18, seven attempts at satellite calls were detected, but when they were analyzed it was ruled out that they were from the submarine. That day also joined the search ten ships of the Navy, eight aircraft and a satellite of the countries that offered their cooperation: United States, United Kingdom, Chile, Brazil, France, Italy.

On Sunday 19, a minisubmarine of the United States Navy joined the search, while the next day a probe picked up "a noise" 200 meters deep and about 360 kilometers from the Peninsula Valdes, but hours later it was confirmed that did not leave the submarine. An empty raft was also found in the sea and flares were spotted near the search site, but it was later confirmed that they did not correspond to the "Ara San Juan".

The following day, on November 21, two submarine rescue squadrons of the US Navy departed from Comodoro Rivadavia to join the operatives.
A significant novelty was registered on November 23, when the ambassador in Austria, Rafael Grossi, sent to the Argentine Government the report made by the Vienna agency that detected "an anomalous, short, violent, singular and non-nuclear event, coinciding with a explosion ", as described by the spokesman of the Navy, Enrique Balbi, at a press conference.

Last Friday (November 24), arrived from Russia to Comodoro Rivadavia the world's largest aircraft, the "Antonov", with a rescue group and a remote control submersible to join the operation. That same day, President Mauricio Macri said that a "serious and profound" investigation will be carried out to find out what happened.

The following day, 10 days after the last communication, from the search operation they discarded that the submarine was on the surface. However, on the next day (November 26) the Norwegian flag vessel, Sophie Siem, sailed from the port of Comodoro Rivadavia with the US submarine submarine rescue squadron.

On November 27, an alleged informative part of the Navy circulated on social networks, in which the submarine was reported by US teams more than a thousand meters deep, but later that version was denied by official sources.

The next day (November 28), the search area of ​​the ship was reduced to about 40 kilometers in radius, after receiving new data from different international organizations that determined an area that represents an area of ​​"20 times the Federal Capital".

Finally, yesterday (November 29) the Navy reported that 68% of the search area was swept, without results. In addition, a group of eight relatives asked to be a plaintiff in the case that is being followed in Caleta Olivia, while the Government and Judge Yañez reached an agreement for the magistrate to access information from the Navy that is not a "military secret". "

This Thursday, the Navy confirmed that the search for the crew of the submarine has been completed, and the operation will continue with the aim of finding the ARA San Juan.

Regards

Tomi.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 2nd December 2017, 02:31
RHP RHP is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,382
Desperately sad and a lesson for all nations that undertake perilous operations with craft and equipment that have become unsuitable.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 2nd December 2017, 12:42
tom roberts tom roberts is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,898
Loss of crew

Whatever the outcome over the condition of the submarine if she was seaworthy or not let's not lose the fact that crew are lost and let us as ex seafarers keep them in our prayers or thoughts and have sympathy for their families who in the end are the ones that suffer,and all the other seafarers throughput the world that are lost but ever mentioned.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 3rd December 2017, 16:04
trotterdotpom trotterdotpom is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 18,354
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom roberts View Post
Whatever the outcome over the condition of the submarine if she was seaworthy or not let's not lose the fact that crew are lost and let us as ex seafarers keep them in our prayers or thoughts and have sympathy for their families who in the end are the ones that suffer,and all the other seafarers throughput the world that are lost but ever mentioned.
Well said.

John T
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 3rd December 2017, 16:24
twogrumpy's Avatar
twogrumpy twogrumpy is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1968 - 1986
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cisco View Post
Q.... is it normal to cut submarines in half to renew the batteries as was done with this one?
I will stand correcting, but that was not the case with the old RN O/P class.
There were battery hatches in the internal deck through which the batteries could be lifted into the main body of the boat, then transported along to a hatch to be lifted out.
A popular job with the workers as it was normally carried out during the night so as not to interrupt other work, mucho overtime.

One picture I saw of the boat showed extreme fouling below the water line which wold throw doubt on the level of maintenance.

A very sad incident for all concerned.
__________________
The greatest cross I have to bear is the cross of Lorraine.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 13th December 2017, 00:27
surveychile surveychile is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,611
One of the last reports published in the Argentinean newspaper today:

A report reveals that the submarine collapsed in less than a second

In his last communication, the head of operations of the ARA San Juan transmitted the intention to "go 40 meters deep to enter the battery bank, to evaluate the damage and expand information." As the nation may have known, many sailors are beginning to wonder if that decision to review the fault was the first step to an explosion.

There are no official answers, but that question could correspond to the conclusions of a report by the Office of Naval Intelligence of the United States, which analyzed the acoustic signal detected on November 15 by the Organization of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and determined that the submarine suffered a lethal collapse, which released an energy similar to an explosion of 5700 kilos of TNT, 380 meters deep.

The report, which the nation had access to, was prepared by acoustic analyst Bruce Rule and risks the thesis that the 44 crew members died instantly, probably not knowing what was happening.

The report of the specialist of the Office of Naval Intelligence of the United States. - country that contributed several naval and air units for the search and rescue operation - concludes that the ARA San Juan sank vertically, at a speed of 10 to 13 knots (18 to 24 kilometers per hour).

They will return to look for the ARA San Juan in the zone of the explosion

Rule is a principal acoustic analyst for the US Naval Intelligence Office. When analyzing the data of the "anomalous, singular, short, violent and non-nuclear event consistent with an explosion" -as was defined at the time by the Navy spokesman, Captain Enrique Balbi-, the report states that the acoustic signal was produced by the collapse of the pressure helmet of the ARA San Juan, at a depth of 380 meters.

The researcher concludes that the helmet was "completely destroyed in approximately 40 milliseconds", a fraction of time that represents "half the minimum time required for the cognitive recognition of an event".

He further explains that "the energy released by the collapse was produced by the almost immediate conversion of sea pressure into kinetic energy", in a movement of the water piston that entered the hull at a speed of approximately 1,800 miles per hour ( 2900 kilometers per hour).

The Navy revealed images of the search more than 800 meters deep

The report of Rule does not consider the state in which the submarine was nor the repair of half life to which it was subjected between 2009 and 2014, during the government of Cristina Kirchner. It is limited, basically, to interpret the data that recorded the explosion. And he estimates that the impact that could have suffered when hitting the sea "would not have produced a detectable long-distance acoustic event".

Noting that before the explosion the submarine ARA San Juan intended to submerge and continue its transit north to Mar del Plata, the hull collapsed at 10.58 on November 15, three and a half hours after its last contact.

The water entrance

The commander of the submarine, Captain Pedro Martín Fernández, had warned in a previous message by radiofrequency, at 6 o'clock in the morning of the fateful day of November 15, that "the entrance of seawater by the ventilation system to the tank of Battery No. 3 caused a short circuit and the beginning of a fire on the balcony of the battery bars. "

Added the commander of the ship, according to the messages broadcast last Wednesday by the Navy, that "the bow batteries are out of service, at the time of the dive" and that the submarine was "propelling with a split circuit."

Naval sources consulted by LA NACION absolutely deny the possibility that the ARA San Juan has been the victim of an attack.

"Today, everything that moves in the sea is fully registered, nothing moves in the sea without the world powers knowing, if there had been an inconvenience with a British submarine, Russia or China would have gone immediately to denounce it," he said. retired officer.

The concrete thing, nevertheless, is that in spite of everything that happens in the sea is registered, the submarine ARA San Juan does not appear.

Beyond the tragic moment that they had to suffer the 44 crew, the marine community maintains the spirit of body and generally support the Navy's criteria of maintaining the expectation of the family until there is proof of a fatal outcome.

Background

The history of the 20th century recognizes several cases of submarines that were victims of tragedies. Most of the time, without survivors.

Rule's report cites the collapse of the USS Scorpion, from the US Navy, which sank slowly for 22 minutes near the Azores Islands, until it collapsed, at a depth of 4,000 meters, in May 1968, in the middle of the Cold War. .

In a case similar to the ARA San Juan, it is presumed that in the Scorpion salt water entered the batteries, which produced a sudden emission of hydrogen gas that killed the crew. The hypothesis of whether the entry of water was caused by an impact of torpedoes of a Soviet submarine floated.

In reference to the entry of water into the battery compartment, the Rule himself maintains that "there is a possibility that a similar sequence of events would occur on board the San Juan submarine."

Five years before, the nuclear submarine Thresher had sunk, at 2300 meters depth. Another military loss for the United States during the arm wrestling with the then Soviet Union. The submarine had launched an immersion test to determine how deep it could reach and, in the middle of that experience, it collapsed and sank.

More recent is the memory of the Russian submarine Kursk, which in August 2000 sank with 118 crew, after suffering two successive explosions in the torpedo room. It is estimated that the latter was comparable to an earthquake of just over 4.2 degrees on the Richter scale.

Located the next day, it took another ten days to reach the submarine's hatch. The rescue operation lasted for more than a year, until the Kursk was rescued from the bottom of the sea on October 8, 2001. It cost US $ 65 million.

Regards

Tomi.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 13th December 2017, 06:21
D1566's Avatar
D1566 D1566 is offline  
Senior Member
Department: Engineering
Active: 1978 - 1990
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 257
Thanks for all the updates.
Tragic loss of seafarers lives.
RIP.
__________________
Martin Perry
Professional Chancer.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 13th December 2017, 19:59
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,871
I saw a report today that some relatives of the crew are claiming that the sub had been hunted by a British helicopter and a Chilean Navy surface ship after it strayed close to the Falklands shortly before it was lost.
Apparently MOD deny there are any anti submarine helos based in the Falklands.
__________________
"Life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 13th December 2017, 20:28
surveychile surveychile is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,611
And no Chilean antisom ship or ships navigating or operating in that zone.

Regards

Tomi.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 13th December 2017, 21:35
Basil's Avatar
Basil Basil is online now  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1962 - 1964
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Kennedy View Post
I saw a report today that some relatives of the crew are claiming that the sub had been hunted by a British helicopter and a Chilean Navy surface ship after it strayed close to the Falklands shortly before it was lost.
Apparently MOD deny there are any anti submarine helos based in the Falklands.
The DM carried that report which, IMHO, is garbage.
1. Comms with family containing ops intel would suggest:
a) Dreadful security.
b) Unbelievable technical opportunity.
2. Improbable chance of Stanley based helo finding sub.


In the extremely unlikely event that there is a shred of substance to this tale; well, you go warlike, you get hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 14th December 2017, 09:57
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,871
Well Basil, the story was first published by La Gaceta Argentina, and picked up by Fox News, then others, including the DM. So its provenance is doubtful to say the least.
As Trump would say "Fake News, nothing to see here, move on".
__________________
"Life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 14th December 2017, 11:04
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1970 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,916
HMS Protector joined the search pretty quickly, one assumes she was in the general area.
Protector has a helo deck, not necessarily an embarked helo. Was she carrying one then?? Perhaps she provided HIFER facilities for a helo operating out of the Malvinas.
Always more questions.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 14th December 2017, 14:04
George.GM's Avatar
George.GM George.GM is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,982
ES. Where are these Malvinas you mention ?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
San Diego Maritime Museum Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo's San Salvador replica launched kewl dude News and Views from the Shipping World 1 11th August 2015 23:11
Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo (?-1543) flagship San Salvador kewl dude News and Views from the Shipping World 0 25th November 2011 17:48



Support SN


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.