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  #1  
Old 6th April 2010, 20:25
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Call Signs.2

Does anyone know if the call sign 2JJ was ever in use at early - 1921 - coastal radio stations. Or is it perhaps a very early amateur c/s ??

David
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  #2  
Old 6th April 2010, 20:56
benjidog benjidog is offline
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Just did a check of the International List os Ship Stations dated February 1929 and all ships listed had a four-letter Call Sign. Nothing starting with a number.

Didn't the BBC start with the Call Sign 2LO? Sounds like it could be a land station to me but I am not expert.
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  #3  
Old 6th April 2010, 20:59
benjidog benjidog is offline
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There is a reference to a station 2JJ HERE but recent stuff and probably not relevant.
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  #4  
Old 6th April 2010, 21:02
Andy Andy is offline
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Not an elderly amateur radio callsign, G2+2 letters were from 1920. You can get 2J1 or 2J0 + 3 letters these days as novice/intermediate amateur callsigns if you're in Jersey
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  #5  
Old 6th April 2010, 21:50
Gareth Jones Gareth Jones is online now  
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I know that any callsigns beginning with G M or 2 were all allocated to the UK. but never came across any "2" callsigns as far as i remember.
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  #6  
Old 7th April 2010, 12:53
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Thanks chaps.

I have been asked by a Naval historian for help. He buys WW1 medals at auction then tries to put a bit of history to the names. In this case it is the Wortley Brothers. Cyril on the right sports what is described as a 'Marconi' uniform.

David
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  #7  
Old 7th April 2010, 12:57
K urgess K urgess is offline
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Definitely a Marconi uniform.
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  #8  
Old 7th April 2010, 13:05
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Thanks, Sahib, have passed it on

David
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Old 7th April 2010, 13:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david.hopcroft View Post
Does anyone know if the call sign 2JJ was ever in use at early - 1921 - coastal radio stations. Or is it perhaps a very early amateur c/s ??

David
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Could have been an Amateur callsign in the era before international callsigns were allocated - see 2AP http://radio.intco.biz/2ap.htm

On the broadcasting side we had 2MT and 2LO from 1922 and various others around the country - 2LO London ∑ 5IT Birmingham ∑ 2ZY Manchester ∑ 5NO Newcastle ∑ 5WA Cardiff ∑ 5SC Glasgow ∑ 2BD Aberdeen ∑ 6BM Bournemouth ∑ 2FL Sheffield ∑ 5PY Plymouth ∑ 2BE Belfast ∑ 2EH Edinburgh relay ∑ 6LV Liverpool relay ∑ 2LS Leeds and Bradford relay ∑ 6KH Hull relay ∑ 5NG Nottingham relay ∑ 2DE Dundee relay ∑ 6ST Stoke relay ∑ 5SX Swansea relay

US 1912 list http://earlyradiohistory.us/1912stat.htm#callsworld shows most ships using three letter calls (some still had just two letters) although those beginning with M were all to do with Marconi rather than the UK!

There seems to be or have been a 2JJ broadcaster in Sydney - http://www.mediaspy.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=669

I have now found reference to the Amateur Radio callsign 2JJ belonging to W.A Skinner, 44 Harley Street, London W1 - that might be your man ! G5UM Callbook is the source and should be attached.
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  #10  
Old 7th April 2010, 15:40
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Hi Bob

Thanks for that. My QSO is looking for Cyril Wortley, 4 Riversdale Road, Egremont, Wallasey. The entry against 2JJ is different. This is the original RQ.

I've done some prodding around on the internet and I was lucky enough to find a reference to him in a transcript from the Wireless World of 20 August 1921 which included a Directory of Experimental Wireless Stations in the United Kingdom. Cyril (surname misspelled) is listed at his home at 4 Riversdale Road, Egremont, Wallasey. His call sign was 2JJ and he was on air from 1930-2130hrs. The wavelength was given in metres as '180 1,000'. He used 'spark, C.W. and telephony'. Can you help me with the meaning of 'C.W.'? I think I understand the other two references.

David
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GKZ
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  #11  
Old 7th April 2010, 18:01
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There's more.........

http://www.andycowley.com/amrad/OldCards/dir.html

This shows a directory of experimental wireless stations set up in 1921 .......

Experimenting what ? 180m I think is 1600'ish kcs and 1000m 3mcs, so CW and RT ?

Anyone any ideas ??

David
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  #12  
Old 8th April 2010, 13:42
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Originally Posted by david.hopcroft View Post
There's more.........

http://www.andycowley.com/amrad/OldCards/dir.html

This shows a directory of experimental wireless stations set up in 1921 .......

Experimenting what ? 180m I think is 1600'ish kcs and 1000m 3mcs, so CW and RT ?

Anyone any ideas ??

David
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Another interesting link Dave. Just experimenting with Wireless (in it's original meaning !!). Experimental licences came before they introduced Amateur licences - and it looks like our predecessors up in St Martins le Grand (or maybe before it's time) kept a close watch on what these experimenters were getting up to ! I've got a feeling that Ireland still issues Experimenters licences rather than Amateur licences.
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  #13  
Old 8th April 2010, 20:26
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Thanks Bob

That would fit the story so far. Our Cyril seems to have gone on to be a TO.

David
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  #14  
Old 8th April 2010, 22:22
Naytikos Naytikos is offline  
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This is all very fascinating. The last link provided by Bob in post 9, indicates that licences/callsigns were issued to everyone or every organisation using radio without any distinction as to the type of usage. Thus we see the BBC in the list alongside 'amateurs' such as the subject of the thread.

I would not be suprised if it was revealed that the British government of the day simply decided to take the '2' prefix as it was the first national authority to issue callsigns and there was the obvious risk of confusion if using '1'.

With regard to 'experimental' licences: Over the years that became translated into 'Testing and Development' and still appears, as such, in the radio regulations of some commonwealth countries. I have one issued here, which authorises me to transmit in any mode on any frequency, up to 2.5kW ERP, subject only to not causing interference to a transmission already in progress. The real reason for these licences is to legalise the repair and testing of transmitters elsewhere than at the licenced station. Thus I can take home a boat VHF or a broadcast FM transmitter, or whatever, and radiate a signal to test it from there.
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  #15  
Old 12th April 2010, 20:36
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Getting back to Cyril Wortley....

I received these two pages from a book called 'Wireless at Sea' published by Marconi in 1950. It is enlightening to see where we all started !!

They must have been made of stern stuff then.......

David
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File Type: jpg GTZM2.jpg (238.5 KB, 24 views)
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  #16  
Old 13th April 2010, 10:49
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I believe that in WWII there was an emergency system of training Radio Officers that was somewhat shorter than the pre war syllabus, following which the Officer went to sea as Junior R/O to complete his training.

My question is, where the Certificates issued of differing status to pre war PMGC and if so where they translated to full certificates allowing the R/O to remain at sea in a senior capacity following the cessation of hopstilities?

I've wondered this for some while and not been able to find a definitive answer.

Duncan
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  #17  
Old 22nd April 2010, 23:03
Rhodri Mawr Rhodri Mawr is offline  
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Duncan

I think the certificates you are referring to were known as "special" cerftificates.
They were intended to ensure an adequate supply of skilled radio operators was
available to need the needs of the merchant marine during World War II. They did
not translate into full certificates although many operators holding these specials
did upgrade them into full radio officer certificates after the end of the war. This
required them to undertake further study. Also,many people with the special certificate found employment aboard fishing vessels where the certification requirement was not so stringent as it was for employment aboard merchant ships.

The definitive answer you have been looking for can be found in the relevant
publications of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) which date from
the post war era. My memory is now a little hazy but I am sure there was still a
reference to the special certificate in the ITU radio rules publications issued in the
60s and the 70s. Certainly, the larger freezer trawlers which operated out of UK
ports during this time were allowed to engage radio operators with the special cert.

Cheers
Rhodri
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  #18  
Old 23rd April 2010, 09:24
teb teb is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodri Mawr View Post
Duncan

I think the certificates you are referring to were known as "special" cerftificates.
They were intended to ensure an adequate supply of skilled radio operators was
available to need the needs of the merchant marine during World War II. They did
not translate into full certificates although many operators holding these specials
did upgrade them into full radio officer certificates after the end of the war. This
required them to undertake further study. Also,many people with the special certificate found employment aboard fishing vessels where the certification requirement was not so stringent as it was for employment aboard merchant ships.

The definitive answer you have been looking for can be found in the relevant
publications of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) which date from
the post war era. My memory is now a little hazy but I am sure there was still a
reference to the special certificate in the ITU radio rules publications issued in the
60s and the 70s. Certainly, the larger freezer trawlers which operated out of UK
ports during this time were allowed to engage radio operators with the special cert.

Cheers
Rhodri
For what it's worth -I went to sea in 1943 with a special ticket as 3rd.R/O I later went back to wireless college and took my 2nd and lst class ticket sailing as lst R/O- Regards Teb

Last edited by teb; 23rd April 2010 at 09:29..
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  #19  
Old 23rd April 2010, 10:15
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When I started at Brook's Bar Manchester in 1958 there were still several people there training for the Special tickets, with the intention of going to work on trawlers. Don't know when those tickets were withdrawn and training ceased.
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  #20  
Old 23rd April 2010, 11:25
K urgess K urgess is offline
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Originally Posted by Ron Stringer View Post
When I started at Brook's Bar Manchester in 1958 there were still several people there training for the Special tickets, with the intention of going to work on trawlers. Don't know when those tickets were withdrawn and training ceased.
Still doing them at Hull 1964 to 1966 and beyond.
They had a sort of drop out system. Apart from the trawler lads who only wanted a special, the rest of us dropped from 1st to 2nd to special depending on ability.
My speed wasn't good enough at the time so I ended up with a 2nd and radar. Which served me well.
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  #21  
Old 23rd April 2010, 16:40
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While on the R/O training nostalgia trip, as well as the various MN radio certificates, in 1959 there were still students taking aeronautical R/O courses at Brook's Bar. I believe that BOAC were still taking them on.
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  #22  
Old 26th May 2010, 20:45
g1noR890025 g1noR890025 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david.hopcroft View Post
There's more.........

http://www.andycowley.com/amrad/OldCards/dir.html

This shows a directory of experimental wireless stations set up in 1921 .......

Experimenting what ? 180m I think is 1600'ish kcs and 1000m 3mcs, so CW and RT ?

Anyone any ideas ??

David
+
Hello David, I think the "CW" that you refer to means "Continuous Wave". In other words it's Morse Code. This I believe is a continuous wave until it's interupted by the morse key to give you the dits and dahs.
Regards. g1no
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  #23  
Old 27th May 2010, 12:22
trotterdotpom trotterdotpom is offline  
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"Special" certificates had the same practical requirements as a 2nd Class but there were no written technical papers.

In post war times an RO could sail with this certificate on ships which were not compulsorily fitted with WT - ie trawlers, tugs and yachts. These ships were only compulsorily fitted with RT and anyone could use it provided it was under the control of someone with a General or Restricted RT certificate - such as a trawler Skipper.

John T.
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  #24  
Old 27th May 2010, 14:56
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The syllabus for all certificates is set out in app 4 of the Handbook for Radio Operators.
It is in the 1968 edition so I guess special certificates were still being issued then.
Cheers
Max
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  #25  
Old 29th May 2010, 00:07
gwzm gwzm is offline  
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A bit late to the party but I've just checked in my copy of the Year Book of Wireless and Telephony for 1921 which has lists of all the then extant coast and ship stations world-wide. There are NO stations listed with a numerical prefix so 2JJ wasn't a ship or coast station.
The original owner of this book was William le Queux, Lavender Cottage, Guildford. telephone Guildford 471. He also had his own telegraphic address: Le Queux, Guildford. I understand that he was one of the pioneers of amateur radio and he has pasted in a couple of handwritten pages with call signs of various stations, including GFAAG with the entry "R33. 900, 1300, &1400m also 450 spark." The others are mostly amateur stations, in the 2xx series.
Another publication, The Bright Sparks of Wireless which talks about the early development of amateur radio, includes a map of the new amateur callsigns which were issued in the autumn of 1920 and the vast majority of these are in the series 2xx, including several in the series 2Jx but I don't see 2JJ.

All the best,
gwzm

PS Have just checked the link in g1no's post and 2JJ is mentioned there.

Last edited by gwzm; 29th May 2010 at 00:10.. Reason: Information update.
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