Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads - Page 64 - Ships Nostalgia
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Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads

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  #1576  
Old 4th February 2012, 16:32
Heiwa Heiwa is offline  
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Originally Posted by jmcg View Post
I merely suggested that the ping pong exchanges between certain members on watertight doors should be sent below to Stormy Weather on a new thread.
What ping pong exchanges are you refering to? Don't we all agree a door in a watertight bulkhead means the bulkhead is not watertight?

Last edited by Heiwa; 4th February 2012 at 16:34..
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  #1577  
Old 4th February 2012, 16:39
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doors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
What ping pong exchanges are you refering to? Don't we all agree a door in a watertight bulkhead means the bulkhead is not watertight?
now you are getting down to the defination of "watertight doors", try a hatch as in a submarine etc etc
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  #1578  
Old 4th February 2012, 16:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
What ping pong exchanges are you refering to? Don't we all agree a door in a watertight bulkhead means the bulkhead is not watertight?
No - next question
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  #1579  
Old 4th February 2012, 16:58
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Originally Posted by Mad Landsman View Post
It looks to me as though there are now two panels missing, 3rd from front had already gone yesterday, rearmost one now also not visible.
Those were the largest, and heaviest, panels so likely to break away first.
They are not structural or load bearing and the mountings would not have been designed for continuous stress in that direction.
HI Mad,Yes definately 2 panels missing now there is a wee tug moving the oil boom at the moment, canb't see if there is a problem with oil though
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  #1580  
Old 4th February 2012, 17:05
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Have I got this right? A watertight bulkhead is watertight; A watertight door is watertight when closed; A watertight bulkhead in which there is an opening is not a watertight bulkhead; A watertight bulkhead in which an opening has been closed with something watertight is still a watertight bulkhead.
Is that a little too simplistic? (K.I.S.S.)

In any event why speak about whether or not a watertight bulkhead is watertight or not on this thread? Unless you know that is the cause of the sinking, which might be suspected but certainly not proven.
Other possibilities exist and have been suggested.

e.g:
The ship is very low in the water due to the big hole in the bottom.
The ship heels over and allows one side of the aft mooring deck to flood.
This allows water in above the bulkhead deck, more water, more weight, the ship sits even lower.
As it sits lower, and is still heeling, even more water downfloods into the rearmost part of the top bulkhead deck and the lowest passenger deck, all via the mooring deck which itself is sinking below the water level.
All this water is on one side of the ship with no means to move that water and balance the ship.
More water enters on one side, flooding the starboard corridor of the lowest passenger deck, and the ship heels even further.
Finally there is too much weight of water in a deck without bulkheads and only fire doors to stop it and the CG shifts with the results which we saw.

Even with all watertight bulkheads in place, with or without closed doors, if the water came in on one side when the ship heeled then it would keep on coming.

So all this 'ping-pong' about watertight doors is, I would contend, academic in this particular case until shown to be otherwise.
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  #1581  
Old 4th February 2012, 17:18
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My sentiments, exactly. See, for reference, discussion of the watertight doors of the Sea Diamond ex Birka Princess following her somewhat similar sinking at Santorini in 2007.

I'm happy to discuss passenger ship subdivision, but in another thread.

Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 4th February 2012 at 17:53..
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  #1582  
Old 4th February 2012, 18:20
Heiwa Heiwa is offline  
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I agree completely. It would appear that damaged CC was still floating with slight list, when mooring deck aft first was above waterline but even later, when the aft mooring had become submerged, and when the L/B embarkation deck SB aft was in the waterline. Only later did CC capsize. The VDR will clarify what/when doors were closed/open and what/when bilge alarms were activated and simplify the incident investigation.
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  #1583  
Old 4th February 2012, 18:21
cassiopeia cassiopeia is offline
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The ship is very low in the water due to the big hole in the bottom
My understanding though is that the ship has too much buoyancy to flood through the mooring deck (whilst relatively level) even with flooding of two or three compartments breached below the waterline. It seemed to be a very long time before the mooring deck was reached and only through heeling. If there was movement water must have been still getting in for some reason, this can only happen if the compartments are not sealed somewhere other than the hole.

If each compartment is sealed at the top the air should get trapped in there like an upturned ice cube tray unless a door is opened or it is not sealed.

Even if it does heel can the ships other compartments not be counterflooded to keep it level? This guy talks about 'cross flooding valves', why are we not discussing them?
http://antipodeanmariner.blogspot.co...onvention.html

Presumably upper deck swimming pools are drained in this type of emergency to avoid it being top heavy. What level is the main pool at, if this is above the COG (after flooding), perhaps this should be drained as well.

Last edited by cassiopeia; 4th February 2012 at 19:08..
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  #1584  
Old 4th February 2012, 19:23
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Here are some pictures of M/S Sharden having been ripped open ... above waterline.

http://cdn.ilgiornale.it/foto-id=830...po_impatto.jpg
http://www.euronews.net/wires/ansa/i...478ac7845d.jpg

So no internal compartments were flooded. But it shows how easy it is to rip open a ship like a sardine tin! You wonder what's going on at Civittavecchia?
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  #1585  
Old 4th February 2012, 19:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Here are some pictures of M/S Sharden having been ripped open ... above waterline.

http://cdn.ilgiornale.it/foto-id=830...po_impatto.jpg
http://www.euronews.net/wires/ansa/i...478ac7845d.jpg

So no internal compartments were flooded. But it shows how easy it is to rip open a ship like a sardine tin! You wonder what's going on at Civittavecchia?
Just what exactly does what's happening in Civittavecchia to the Sharden have to do with the Costa Concordia?
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  #1586  
Old 4th February 2012, 19:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Here are some pictures of M/S Sharden having been ripped open ... above waterline.

http://cdn.ilgiornale.it/foto-id=830...po_impatto.jpg
http://www.euronews.net/wires/ansa/i...478ac7845d.jpg

So no internal compartments were flooded. But it shows how easy it is to rip open a ship like a sardine tin! You wonder what's going on at Civittavecchia?
A different ship, in a different place, that didn't sink...
Maybe this should have its own thread
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  #1587  
Old 4th February 2012, 19:54
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Originally Posted by wharferat View Post
Just what exactly does what's happening in Civittavecchia to the Sharden have to do with the Costa Concordia?
Well , they both have an Italian connection ?.
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  #1588  
Old 4th February 2012, 20:10
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The earliest pictures of the Concordia having 'arrived' show all the starboard lifeboats in place. It also shows that the ship is heeling and well down at the stern.
The water level, where it is illuminated and visible, is level with Passenger deck 1 cabin windows at the stern rising to being about level with the bottom of 'deck 0' at the bow.
Passenger deck 1 is the same level as the aft mooring deck, therefore that deck on the starboard side is already under water shortly after grounding.
Deck 0, as is now understood to be the top bulkhead deck, at the stern it is also under water.
Are the tops of all the watertight compartments sealed? it appears to be unlikely as that would be an open means of escape.
Cross flooding valves - How would they work in this case without a pump? Water does not run uphill.
I would agree with Andrew Craig-Bennett's appraisal that the heel was induced by the free surface water in the hull moving to the starboard side as the ship came to a halt, sideways. There was no means of recovering from that without some serious pumping.
Swimming pools are normally drained when not in use, but the water is still on board in a tank somewhere.
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  #1589  
Old 4th February 2012, 20:55
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I don't think a passenger ship's bulkhead deck has to resemble a bulk carrier's tank top or even the safety decks of a floating dock.
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  #1590  
Old 4th February 2012, 22:20
cassiopeia cassiopeia is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Landsman View Post
The earliest pictures of the Concordia having 'arrived' show all the starboard lifeboats in place. It also shows that the ship is heeling and well down at the stern.
The water level, where it is illuminated and visible, is level with Passenger deck 1 cabin windows at the stern rising to being about level with the bottom of 'deck 0' at the bow.

Passenger deck 1 is the same level as the aft mooring deck, therefore that deck on the starboard side is already under water shortly after grounding.

Deck 0, as is now understood to be the top bulkhead deck, at the stern it is also under water.

Are the tops of all the watertight compartments sealed? it appears to be unlikely as that would be an open means of escape.
Cross flooding valves - How would they work in this case without a pump? Water does not run uphill.
OK I'm probably getting confused with all these decks. Where is the lowest unsealed deck where the water will inflood into the ship in this photo? This photo looks quite late with all the Starboard lifeboats launched.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...a_2121115b.jpg

Doesn't the emergency generator operate the pumps? Have you considered if he was indeed cross flooding to prevent the port list and overdid it? How much of a bump was there when it came to rest, did any passengers feel it? If it was that violent perhaps it was holed again higher up.

Last edited by cassiopeia; 4th February 2012 at 22:35..
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  #1591  
Old 4th February 2012, 22:31
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Originally Posted by cassiopeia View Post
OK I'm probably getting confused with all these decks. Where is the lowest unsealed deck where the water will inflood into the ship?

This looks quite late with all the Starboard lifeboats launched,

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...a_2121115b.jpg

Doesn't the emergency generator operate the pumps?
I'll try to answer this but there are people who know this subject better than me here, and I hope one of them will be along and will correct me.

All the decks above the very lowest deck (called the tank top, because it is the top of the double bottom tanks) are "unsealed", because they have holes in them for stairwells and for lift shafts. The theory of the "bulkhead deck" is that the watetight bulkheads stop at that deck - it runs along the top of them - and that deck will be above the waterline when two (SOLAS 60) or three (SOLAS 90)compartments are flooded. It is not a sort of secondary tank top. It is just meant to be above the water when two compartments are flooded.

In your picture, the bulkhead deck is presumably submerged, except perhaps right forward, because it must be the deck below the lower of the two rows of windows.

The emergency generator does not operate the bilge/ballast or fire pumps.

Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 4th February 2012 at 22:42..
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  #1592  
Old 4th February 2012, 22:45
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Well I mean reasonably sealed from the outside, not perfectly. Here is a picture of the stern. The deck with the ropes attached looks relatively sealed, but two decks above that the are some railings which is presumably open , this may have been below the waterline in that last photo.

http://www.allthatfloats.com/eye/07b...ordia_0190.jpg

If the emergency generator can't operate the pumps then that seems an obvious design fault.

Last edited by cassiopeia; 4th February 2012 at 22:55..
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  #1593  
Old 4th February 2012, 22:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Here are some pictures of M/S Sharden having been ripped open ... above waterline.

http://cdn.ilgiornale.it/foto-id=830...po_impatto.jpg
http://www.euronews.net/wires/ansa/i...478ac7845d.jpg

So no internal compartments were flooded. But it shows how easy it is to rip open a ship like a sardine tin! You wonder what's going on at Civittavecchia?
With all due repect Heiwa it was youself who posted earlier that you did not believe the steel found on the bottom were hull steel from CC and at the same time stated the port propeller was on the bottom . Now you are saying how easy it is for a ships bottom to ripped open like a sardine can .
I am having some difficulty understanding your position ; perhaps you may wish to clarify .
Derek
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  #1594  
Old 4th February 2012, 22:58
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Cassiopeia - post 1592 - I would say that the bulkhead deck is the deck below the mooring deck and the lower row of windows level with the mooring deck. That is very roughly as far above the waterline as the keel plates are below it, as she only draws about eight and a half metres. Since the whole ship is floating in eight and half metres, and the TPI is getting bigger due to the hull shape above the waterline, that means there is ample bouyancy to support the ship with two or even three compartments flooded.

The bilge/ballast pumps cannot hope to overcome a big hole in the side of the ship; the watertight bulkheads do that. There is a separate emergency fire pump. The main job of the emergency generator (from memory for three hours on a cargo ship and for thirty hours on a passenger ship) is to provide lighting and essential services. If the emergency generator fails, you go over to the emergency battery
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  #1595  
Old 4th February 2012, 23:04
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Getting back to WT doors SOLAS requires all Class C WT doors to be closed when the vessel is in waters less than 3 times the normal draft .
In this case it would be some 27 meters .

Food for thought .

Last edited by Derek Roger; 4th February 2012 at 23:09..
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  #1596  
Old 5th February 2012, 00:01
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Originally Posted by cassiopeia View Post
Well I mean reasonably sealed from the outside, not perfectly. Here is a picture of the stern. The deck with the ropes attached looks relatively sealed, but two decks above that the are some railings which is presumably open , this may have been below the waterline in that last photo.

http://www.allthatfloats.com/eye/07b...ordia_0190.jpg

If the emergency generator can't operate the pumps then that seems an obvious design fault.
If you look at the part where the mooring ropes come out - That is the mooring deck, it has access from the deck below and, I think, via the passenger accommodation forward of it (with sealed windows).
It is open on three sides to the outside. Water can therefore pass unimpeded onto that deck, and into the ship, if part of it gets below the water level.
The deck below that deck is the highest bulkhead deck and contains storerooms and crew accommodation (no windows). It is also the deck for use by passengers at low level quays which means that there are open stairways up to the main part of the ship.

The picture I have in mind should be on this link, (and others).
http://ptsii3.blogspot.com/2012/01/d...f-italian.html
It shows all lifeboats still in place so it was apparently taken before the main evacuation started.

When the water reached the open deck beneath the lifeboats, two decks up from the mooring deck, then there are doors through which the water can flow unrestricted.
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  #1597  
Old 5th February 2012, 02:15
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Andrew, I echo Roddy's sentiments - don't leave the thread! you're contributions most pertinenent.

(I see you haven't - I'm catching up, at Cousin's funeral breakfast last couple of days).
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  #1598  
Old 5th February 2012, 02:22
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Given all the news coming out about the girlfriend and her kit being found in the master's accomodation I reckon any time spent under house arrest should be taken off any jail time eventually handed down.

I reckon his missus will be giving him real stick all day every day.... bet he wishes he was back in the slammer...
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  #1599  
Old 5th February 2012, 04:43
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Originally Posted by Mad Landsman View Post
If you look at the part where the mooring ropes come out - That is the mooring deck, it has access from the deck below and, I think, via the passenger accommodation forward of it (with sealed windows).
It is open on three sides to the outside. Water can therefore pass unimpeded onto that deck, and into the ship, if part of it gets below the water level.
The deck below that deck is the highest bulkhead deck and contains storerooms and crew accommodation (no windows). It is also the deck for use by passengers at low level quays which means that there are open stairways up to the main part of the ship.

The picture I have in mind should be on this link, (and others).
http://ptsii3.blogspot.com/2012/01/d...f-italian.html
It shows all lifeboats still in place so it was apparently taken before the main evacuation started.

When the water reached the open deck beneath the lifeboats, two decks up from the mooring deck, then there are doors through which the water can flow unrestricted.


On flooding. If I'm not mistaken Andrew Craig-Bennett suggested several pages ago that more flooding may have occurred via open watertight doors on the mooring deck - good photo in http://www.allthatfloats.com/eye/07b...ordia_0190.jpg

Had the starboard-side door (only one, surely?) on that deck been left open, when the ship "lolled" to starboard there would have been a fair amount of water pouring into the starboard side corridors. This is conjecture of course but, had it been open it would likely have been latched thus, not just left hanging; when you open a watertight door you don't just leave it to bang around, you either close it again or latch it. Although we haven't seen the doors on the underwater clips we should surely assume the photographers have filmed the position of any WT deck doors. For my money, looking at the shoreside pics as the boats were released, an open mooring deck door would be a strong contributing factor suspect.

Last edited by David Lorimer; 5th February 2012 at 04:48..
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  #1600  
Old 5th February 2012, 04:52
David Lorimer David Lorimer is offline  
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Given all the news coming out about the girlfriend and her kit being found in the master's accomodation I reckon any time spent under house arrest should be taken off any jail time eventually handed down.

I reckon his missus will be giving him real stick all day every day.... bet he wishes he was back in the slammer...
In the final sentence, perhaps house arrest could count double and be discounted from prison time. Hell hath no etc.
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