Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads - Page 14 - Ships Nostalgia
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Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads

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  #326  
Old 17th January 2012, 13:43
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Originally Posted by R831814 View Post
Unwarranted personal attack against 3 members and against forum rules.

I would request that mods take appropriate action.
You look like Mancini standing on the side lines waving an imaginery card to get me sent off.

...and he looks stupid.

As usual it seems to be that it is OK for some to have opinions but as soon as "--" and I voice ours it is perceived by some to be personal attacks.

Why do you not fill in your profiles so we can see if you have any experience to be asking the mods to take action against me.
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  #327  
Old 17th January 2012, 14:27
cheddarnibbles cheddarnibbles is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Union Jack View Post
In the sixties we avoided those ships with the distinctive ugly yellow flues like the plague (even though we had an ugly blue one !!)

Cheddar - Thread drift and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things I know, but the difference is that your vertical blue flues looked absolutely right on the ships in question, whilst the vertical yellow funnels never look quite right with the lines of the current Costa vessels - all bar one.

Jack
Not really out of context. Just another way of saying what good seamen,the likes of Captain Punchard, would never have attempted without incriminating the poor Italian master currently on charge.
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  #328  
Old 17th January 2012, 14:30
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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I wonder if Cunard will cancel one of the Queens doing a sail-by next year at Scarborough to honour Jimmy Saville who is buried on a hillside, at a 45deg angle, in order for him to overlook over the Bay.
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  #329  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:07
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The reports that I am hearing over here about Jimmy Saville and "Queens" may make it more acceptable to honor Gary Glitter !
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  #330  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:16
Gollywobbler Gollywobbler is offline  
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I've got some questions that I hope some of the other members might be able to answer, please. In no particular order:

1. I saw a TV news clip in which the Editor of a trade magazine called "Sea Safe" or similar sided with the Captain. The Captain says that the ship hit an uncharted rock. Allowing for translation, journalistic licence etc, the Captain seems to have been saying that the relevant rock was sticking out sideways from a group of charted rocks/a reef. He seems to have said that the charts do not show this sideways-protruding piece of rock.

The Editor chap said that this is feasible. He said that there is a lot of minor seismic activity in and around Italy and that he wouldn't be surprised if the area does suddenly "grow rocks" in the way that the Captain seems to have described.

Does anyone know how likely this theory might be, please? (I accept that, even if there could have been a "new rock," it might not have any bearing on whether the ship should have been where she was in the first place. I am merely curious because I haven't seen any comments on this thread about the "new rock theory.")

2. I've seen and heard claims in the media that it is supposed to be possible to get 4,000 people off a cruise ship of this size in 30 minutes. (With the old Boeing 747s, the target time to evacuate the aircraft was 90 seconds. The airlines practised it regularly, getting their own staff to act as "passengers" etc.) Is this 30 minutes described for cruise ships something that has ever actually been done or is it just a theory?

3. Presumably the 30-minute claim depends on the ship remaining upright so that lifeboats can be launched from both sides of the ship?

4. I've read on here that the designs, regulations etc are all aimed at keeping the ship upright. However, is it possible to override all that and to careen the ship deliberately - as seems to have happened? If it is still possible to careen a cruise ship deliberately, it seems to have been a good idea, to me? (Not that I claim any relevant expertise.)

5. The lifeboats. How does this work, please? I understand that there is supposed to be enough space in the "proper lifeboats" for everyone on the ship. However the TV footage showed loads of orange & black inflatable life rafts as well. Would the liferafts also have belonged to the ship, just in case the "proper lifeboats" couldn't be used for some reason?

6. I was puzzled to read that the passengers' life jackets are all stowed in their cabins. Wouldn't it make more sense to carry at least twice the number of lifejackets as might be needed, so as to have half of them stowed in the cabins and the other half stowed in muster stations all round the passenger areas of the ship? The idea of sending people down below to their cabins instead of getting all of them onto the upper decks as quickly as possible seems rather stupid to me for the sake of life-jackets which probably only cost the ship a couple of quid each?

Many thanks

Gill

Last edited by Gollywobbler; 17th January 2012 at 15:21..
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  #331  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:26
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derekhore derekhore is offline  
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Another unofficial view on things:

http://gcaptain.com/captain-costa-co...screwed/?37736
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  #332  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:34
Split Split is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackal View Post
I think Costa Cruises is doing an immediate 'damage limitation' exercise to prevent wholesale lack of confidence in their operation. If they can convince the world that this was a 'rogue captain' - then they may have averted a collapse of the company and losses to shareholders.
[Note: I don't condone the above action in any way - should it prove correct]

(Edit - I've just seen that RHP has basically said the same as above)

Interesting note about the cabin doors locking shut on loss of power - I know most of these vessels use the same swipe cards for purchases and cabin door access - but there is no way on earth that Class would allow this regime, and I'd be stunned if the system had been set up thus - and had been 'missed' for 7 years.

If it is shown that the cause of the foundering was due to a too-close approach to the shore - then I'm afraid the term is:

RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT (of 4000 persons).

Al
My son heard on the box (Spanish programme) that Costa knows where their ships are at all times due to "electronic tagging" in a control room they have at the office.

It's not unbelievable in this modern age. In fact, thinking about it, it is highly probable. If true, they cannot deny knowledge of their ships' movements.

Any comments?
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  #333  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:43
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Nick Balls Nick Balls is offline  
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Gill,
The worlds oceans are never charted to this kind of accuracy. Safe and prudent seamanship should dictate that ample safe clearances are always maintained. Not relating to this case but just as years ago we had 'Radar assisted' collisions, so these days we have accidents which revolve around misunderstandings over the capabilities of GPS.
The 'qualifications' of Master Mariner includes 'experience' Something historically greatly valued and one area in which some recent maritime accidents have put into question the abilities of both companies and authorities to provide adequate people. The company's management system must include proof that Management itself is ensuring such competence is in fact in place. Liabilities for accidents don't just lie with a single person.
Lifeboat design has limitations , one of those being the angle of heel of the vessel. This will always be the case for launching davit launched boats, newer designs of free fall boat on the stern of vessels have proved very successful , yet clearly here too are limitations (re numbers) Life-rafts are not 'instead of' they are simply an alternative system which itself has pros and cons compared to boats.
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  #334  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:56
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The latest information on cbc is that there are now 29 people unaccounted for . 25 passengers and 4 crew . One suspects the crew missing may be in the engine room area .
The company has stated that the vessel was well off its approved course .
The coast guard have reported that the captain refused to return to the ship when ordered to do so while the vessel was still being evacuated .
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  #335  
Old 17th January 2012, 15:59
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollywobbler View Post
I've got some questions that I hope some of the other members might be able to answer, please. In no particular order:

1. I saw a TV news clip in which the Editor of a trade magazine called "Sea Safe" or similar sided with the Captain. The Captain says that the ship hit an uncharted rock. Allowing for translation, journalistic licence etc, the Captain seems to have been saying that the relevant rock was sticking out sideways from a group of charted rocks/a reef. He seems to have said that the charts do not show this sideways-protruding piece of rock.

The Editor chap said that this is feasible. He said that there is a lot of minor seismic activity in and around Italy and that he wouldn't be surprised if the area does suddenly "grow rocks" in the way that the Captain seems to have described.

Does anyone know how likely this theory might be, please? (I accept that, even if there could have been a "new rock," it might not have any bearing on whether the ship should have been where she was in the first place. I am merely curious because I haven't seen any comments on this thread about the "new rock theory.")

2. I've seen and heard claims in the media that it is supposed to be possible to get 4,000 people off a cruise ship of this size in 30 minutes. (With the old Boeing 747s, the target time to evacuate the aircraft was 90 seconds. The airlines practised it regularly, getting their own staff to act as "passengers" etc.) Is this 30 minutes described for cruise ships something that has ever actually been done or is it just a theory?

3. Presumably the 30-minute claim depends on the ship remaining upright so that lifeboats can be launched from both sides of the ship?

4. I've read on here that the designs, regulations etc are all aimed at keeping the ship upright. However, is it possible to override all that and to careen the ship deliberately - as seems to have happened? If it is still possible to careen a cruise ship deliberately, it seems to have been a good idea, to me? (Not that I claim any relevant expertise.)

5. The lifeboats. How does this work, please? I understand that there is supposed to be enough space in the "proper lifeboats" for everyone on the ship. However the TV footage showed loads of orange & black inflatable life rafts as well. Would the liferafts also have belonged to the ship, just in case the "proper lifeboats" couldn't be used for some reason?

6. I was puzzled to read that the passengers' life jackets are all stowed in their cabins. Wouldn't it make more sense to carry at least twice the number of lifejackets as might be needed, so as to have half of them stowed in the cabins and the other half stowed in muster stations all round the passenger areas of the ship? The idea of sending people down below to their cabins instead of getting all of them onto the upper decks as quickly as possible seems rather stupid to me for the sake of life-jackets which probably only cost the ship a couple of quid each?

Many thanks

Gill
I'll try to answer to your questons on my experience (I'm a retired marine angineer and my father has been master of several passenger ships, Enrico Costa included).

1) It's of course possible the rise of the sea bottom due to seismc activity, but this usually results in mud banks more then rocks.
In this specifc case is nonsense: the "Scole" rocks , where Concordia hit first, are well known to all people of Giglio (and to myself). The last rock is less visible than the others, but is charted in every sea map.
The claim of the captain on "not charted rock" seems to me a first (and pathetic) attempt to "save tthe ass" to the watch officer and to himself.

2) In completely favourable conditions, and just to score a sort of Guinnes record, maybe (but I'm not sure).
Unluckyly a wreck NEVER happens in such conditions. In this case the evacuation took about 4 -:- 6 hours.

3) It is possible to caeen the ship ballasting the tanks in the double bottom; I don't know if this has been done for Concordia, or if the list to starboard is due to te groundin reacton effect.

4) I heard that the "normal" lifeboat of Concordia were supposed for the 125% of the people on board.
Of course, due to ship's list, and the nearness to the coast, the starbord boats has not been launched. This is an accident that often occurs in a wreckage.
Inflatable liferafts are foreseen just for this reason, and for pick up people from the sea

5) in each stateroom is foreseen a life-jacket for each people, so, in case of emergency each one has surely a lifejacket to wear at the moment they leave the cabin to go at the muster stations. If people can't come back in the cabins, there are lockers with a large amount of life jackets near the lifeboats. These are the jackets that most of the pssengers of Concordia wear.

Piero
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  #336  
Old 17th January 2012, 16:03
Derek Dunn Derek Dunn is offline  
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I believe the ships course is dictated from head office prior to sailing and any deviation from that course is flagged up ashore. Is this true?
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  #337  
Old 17th January 2012, 16:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Roger View Post
The latest information on cbc is that there are now 29 people unaccounted for . 25 passengers and 4 crew . One suspects the crew missing may be in the engine room area .
The company has stated that the vessel was well off its approved course .
The coast guard have reported that the captain refused to return to the ship when ordered to do so while the vessel was still being evacuated .
On TV moments ago they said they have recovered 5 more bodies.
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  #338  
Old 17th January 2012, 16:19
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Split View Post
My son heard on the box (Spanish programme) that Costa knows where their ships are at all times due to "electronic tagging" in a control room they have at the office.

It's not unbelievable in this modern age. In fact, thinking about it, it is highly probable. If true, they cannot deny knowledge of their ships' movements.

Any comments?
Split, surely is possible to plot a ship through GPS in every moment, but I can't imagine an Owner clerk doing that sitting in front of a screen all night long.
The whole deviation from the approved course would have took no more than an half hour.
Piero
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  #339  
Old 17th January 2012, 16:39
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Originally Posted by Cisco View Post
Two more chartlets ..... I think we can discard the idea that he went inside Le Scole.
2 cables offshore is in deep water ( according to the chart) but it is still only a ship's length from the land.........
It is IMPOSSILE to pass inside "Le Scole". They are rocks, NOT islets.
The space between them and the sea draught is just fit for a small boat.
Piero
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  #340  
Old 17th January 2012, 16:47
Split Split is offline  
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Originally Posted by Piero43 View Post
Split, surely is possible to plot a ship through GPS in every moment, but I can't imagine an Owner clerk doing that sitting in front of a screen all night long.
The whole deviation from the approved course would have took no more than an half hour.
Piero
I had thought that Concordia's case might be different, with the office closed, but there have been comments that the company turned a blind eye to "unofficial visits" to attractive coasts to all their cruise ships and it is probable that many of these course deviations occurred within office hours. If this is the case, it may help prove that they do, unofficially, condone straying off course.

When I was at sea there was a "General Letter Book". which was required reading for all new officers. Such a book would contain general letters to all ships and would show the company's requirements with regard to ship operation. It was quite a size, my company sent a lot of letters! If Costa had such a book, their disapproval of course deviations would, certainly, be in it. My company was like most of the rest, they wanted prove things. Sending a letter to all ships helped to keep the writer out of the fan's direction.

Last edited by Split; 17th January 2012 at 17:01..
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  #341  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:05
Greyman Greyman is offline  
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Originally Posted by Piero43 View Post
Split, surely is possible to plot a ship through GPS in every moment, but I can't imagine an Owner clerk doing that sitting in front of a screen all night long.
The whole deviation from the approved course would have took no more than an half hour.
Piero
Its over 30 years since I was last on the bridge and I would like to know if with all this modern GPS navigation a record is kept independantly by the ships owners of its movement ,course, time ,speed etc as if so any captain making such an unauthorised alteration of course would risk being questioned very closely by the owners as to what he was doing .Unless of course he had been authorised to do so .

If these course records exist surely it would be easy to plot exactly the position of the vessel when this manouvre was completed last August and compared to what happened on Friday evening ?

I would also like to know if the vessel would have been under manual steering command or would this be auto pilot from GPS data to turn the ship on to the Northerly course parallel to the Island .
Regards, Mark
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  #342  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:07
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piero43 View Post
Split, surely is possible to plot a ship through GPS in every moment, but I can't imagine an Owner clerk doing that sitting in front of a screen all night long.
The whole deviation from the approved course would have took no more than an half hour.
Piero
After watching a television programme it may well be possible that they may have Owner's Clerk's keeping an eye on their ship's movements as Rolls Royce through their telementry system's have Owner's Clerk's/Engineer's watching the performance of their "in use" engine's worldwide 24 hrs per day so that the can monitor any performance "fall off", they are based at Derby, England.
In regard's to MJ's#329, I know what you mean, however, where he presently is residing, the angle, the emission's from Fylingdale's and the even closer GCHQ Outstation his body may well be able to stand up and wave to the ship itself, Boris Karloff style.
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  #343  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:07
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Piero, Do you happen to know how many cruise ships Costa owns, and was the Concordia their flag Ship.


John.
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  #344  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:18
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I would assume the office has GPS recorded history of all ship movements at least for present voyage and possibly for past voyages. This is simple GPS route history on most handheld GPS units. Many companies in USA trucking industry do the same. It's conceivable to track a persons location aboard ship as well if they have a modern cel phone receiving a signal.
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  #345  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:19
john g john g is offline
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Seem to remember the QE2 hitting an unchartered rock .......Find it difficult to lay the blame on the captain with out all the facts, sure he is ultimatley responsible but the guys on the bridge are professional and have probably followed that course before......seismic movement not unheard of. Costa naturally have to say the right thing, its a mega mess.
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  #346  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rogers View Post
Piero, Do you happen to know how many cruise ships Costa owns, and was the Concordia their flag Ship.


John.
This Costa web site has a list of all their vessels (interesting to see that Concordia has already been removed). If you look on the pages for each vessel you will see web cams and position, course & speed info etc

http://www.costacruise.com/usa/ships.html

Howard
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  #347  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:22
gadgee gadgee is offline   SN Supporter
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I read in the press today it is expected that questions will be asked over the adequacy of Carnival's(Costa) management. The insurance industry are expected to fork out 750M US dollars making it the most costly marine related disaster.
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  #348  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:28
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rogers View Post
Piero, Do you happen to know how many cruise ships Costa owns, and was the Concordia their flag Ship.


John.
John, Split, etc., my post meant, in my intention, to point out that the owner can't plot every single moment of the navigation of his ships, it can surely reconstruct all throug GPS, Black Box, etc. and therefore is true that he can't know that the Concordia Master was deviating from the prescribed course.
The "salute" is a tolerated practice, provided that it doesn't imply risk for the ship: and this lays only on the master judgement.
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  #349  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:31
callpor callpor is offline   SN Supporter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Split View Post
My son heard on the box (Spanish programme) that Costa knows where their ships are at all times due to "electronic tagging" in a control room they have at the office.

It's not unbelievable in this modern age. In fact, thinking about it, it is highly probable. If true, they cannot deny knowledge of their ships' movements.

Any comments?
There have been lots of these systems around for many years which allow the "office" to precisely monitor all their vessels positions and activities. I'm not an expert on the subject but there must be some SN members with this expertise who can comment.

One system I observed some years ago (about 1995) allowed the "office" to remotely monitor the status of everything onboard, the navigation, engineroom and cargo systems at any time. The vessel(s) would not be aware of being poled.

Since then up to very recently (2011) have observed many of these systems in operation which precisely identify each vessel on a duplicated electronic chart system. These are real time systems so any deviation from planned tracks can be monitored and if necessary alarmed. The operations manager of one company explained to me that each vessel in their system would enter his intended passage plan (berth to berth) which the office could then evaluate and monitor as they saw fit.

So I guess that Costa probably has one of these systems of electronic tagging just as your son heard in that report. If so, Costa may have to explain why they didn't identify the deviation?

Chris
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  #350  
Old 17th January 2012, 17:36
Mjroots Mjroots is offline  
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I'm stumped on the third and too old to be too proud to admit it. And Wiki didn't say. Who was it, besides Titanic and Magdalena?
Wiki does say (I know, because I put it there ). The third one was RFA Dinsdale, but Mr Hitler had a hand in that one!
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