Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads - Page 36 - Ships Nostalgia
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Cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' aground - merged threads

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  #876  
Old 23rd January 2012, 13:46
Jacktar1 Jacktar1 is offline  
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Unhappy

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Originally Posted by Boatman25 View Post
Seems to me a certain person has taken over the posting and believes she is right no matter what the more knowing and more experienced people say, to me she has spoilt the enjoyment of the thread and it is no longer interesting, just boring and full of hot air like the Coastguard thread which I no longer take an interest in any more
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  #877  
Old 23rd January 2012, 13:50
McCloggie McCloggie is offline  
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From what I've read, it seems that Mr Ferrarini did do all this once he and Capt Schettino had decided to "go public" with the information, as it were.

This should not be a case of even thinking about the "going public" aspect. You cannot hide a sinking cruise liner so everything will be known at some date. From where I sit, the Operations Manager level job is to provide assistance - not to deal with the press. That is taken care of by a specialist.


The real blame game is that Costa claim that they knew nothing about the fiasco before the authorities were told but Capt Schettino says that they did. Maybe it is de rigueur to have private conversations first so that the Ops Manager will not be taken by surprise when the brown stuff hits the fan publicly?

See above. The ship must inform the 2nd line support onshore. It should be in Costa's SMS that the 2nd line support mobilises the 3rd line of Senior Management. You refer to the "brown stuff hitting the fan" - nobody at this stage should be worrying about that. Let the Senior Management sort that one out. Ops Manager is there to provide support and report the facts.

Costa are being quite light on their feet, though - they say that their "central ops room" or the equivalent were not informed. Capt Schettino didn't say where Mr Ferrarini was at the relevant times but why would he be in this central ops room after 9.30pm local time on a Friday? He's not a shift-worker, surely?

I am used to having a duty emergency number that our vessels can call 24/7. The phone is on a desk and there is also a mobile (same number) for out of office hours. There may be a DPA (Designated Person Ashore) or there may be a Duty Roster and Duty Manager then takes the call, mobilises the local response (2nd Line) who in turn notify senior management (3rd line). Senior management will always be informed, but will only act as required.

Capt Schettino is adamant that he had one-to-one conversations with Mr Ferrarini alone, so where was the latter when these conversations took place? Perhaps the "central ops room" is not told anything either until the company already knows about the problem at a very senior level? That's one of the many mysteries that needs clearing up, in my view.
As we can see, Mr Ferrarini could have been anywhere. In addition to the Coastguard ops room I would expect a company one as well. But this is my point - the Costa response procedures just do not seem strong enough or clear enough. Alternatively, if the procedures are OK they are being ignored either through ignorance through lack of training or on purpose. Either way, the Costa SMS does not appear to be doing what the IMO expected when the SMS regulations were brought in.

McC

Last edited by McCloggie; 23rd January 2012 at 13:54..
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  #878  
Old 23rd January 2012, 13:56
Gollywobbler Gollywobbler is offline  
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Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
Gill - re post 871 - please include me out of this part of the discussion.

I am a shore based manager. I have been on the receiving end of such phone calls, luckily never from a passenger ship, although that was the stuff of my nightmares when my then employers (excellent people) owned one.

One such call began "We've got a bit of trouble..." (main engine failure off a lee shore) and another was "I've made a mess of things..." (grounding), so I'd like to offer some thoughts, but honestly, we really don't know anything like enough, yet, for me to feel able to comment usefully on this side of things.

We can see what the ship did, and use our collective wisdom to interpret what may or must have happened, but the conversations between the Master and his shore office are known only to those who took part.
Hi Andrew

You've edited the last paragraph out of your public post so I've edited it out of this reply too.

I agree with you 100%. The Judge doesn't say anything about any of this bit in her Judgement.

I'm waiting for the evidence itself to go viral on the Web, which I reckon it will if anyone can be bothered to translate 135 pages out of Italian. The Google translator tool is not good enough, in my view, and I can really only read English - some French too but I don't think I've got enough technical vocab in French.

The media say that Capt Schettino told the Court at length about the private converations he allegedly says he had with the Mr Ferrarini. However, I'd prefer to read a reliable copy of the actual evidence before it would be fair to try to state any of this bit as apparent fact rather than merely alleged fact.

(A colleague of mine copped it once for saying that something had "apparently" happened when it had seemingly only happened "allegedly." He and I were both working for one of the Magic Circle Law firms in the City and the client was a very wealthy entity from the general direction of the Middle East. I heard on the grapevine that the client went ballistic and that the firm had to pay oodles of dosh to persuade the client not to complain publicly!)

Cheers

Gill

Last edited by Gollywobbler; 23rd January 2012 at 14:00.. Reason: typo
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  #879  
Old 23rd January 2012, 13:57
McCloggie McCloggie is offline  
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Sorry about the mess!

I tried to split the post into colours and italics and failed!

McC
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  #880  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:12
Steve Steve is offline
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Hello Steve

There is no reason why anyone should pay for the privilege of receiving personal insults from the other members of this thing. You might well think that refusing to pay to put up with that is childish and illogical. I think that it is perfectly logical and sheer common-sense.

If you want Jaguar06's money, make sure that you stop your fellow members from insulting him/her, I would suggest.

If you read some of the very personal (and totally off-topic) insults that have been dished out over the last 5 pages or so of this thread, they are not "heavy weather". They are nothing but personal insults, very offensive and pure, petty, immature spite - as you will see for yourself if you read them.

I'm not a bit surprised that Jaguar06 feels so disheartened that s/he wants to rack off out of this forum. There are other forums - populated by some much nicer people than some of the members on here - which are altogether more civilised than SN. That's a poor reflection on SN, I would suggest.

Cheers

Gill
I would suggest you leave then ?
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  #881  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:15
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captain61 captain61 is offline  
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Well put Steve....

Stephen
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  #882  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:26
Mjroots Mjroots is offline  
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OK, going back to the two close passes of Giglio, the earlier, authorised pass apparently took Costa Concordia a bit closer to the shore than the unauthorised pass which led to the accident.

What was the speed of the vessel in the earlier pass? Was it lower than that of the accident pass. In other words, could squat effect have played a part here? Had Costa Concordia been going slower, is it possible that there would have been no accident?
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  #883  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:28
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Cruise ship "Costa Concordia" aground

I would suggest you leave then ?

Try Motor Boat & Yachting.
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  #884  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:37
Split Split is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gollywobbler View Post
Hi Split

]
You are sooooo correct. What is more, all these organisations are very hierarchical about who gets told what and who gets told first.

Part of that is the fear that anyone who is not senior enough might blab on e-mail, Twitter or whatever and the whole thing could go viral in a matter of seconds, with worried family members of the pax & crew finding out in the wrong way etc.

Part of it, too, is a fear of internal back-stabbing if information gets into the wrong hands. I used to work for the MCA and soon became very chummy with one of the Directors. It was amazing how CYOA seemed to be more important than anything else, even internally.
The fear you mention is justified! With more than 4000 souls on board it is a safe bet that there were 1000 mobile phones there, too. and you can ring anywhere.

You can get smashing photos with the new ones!

You have to be good at covering up to get away with much, these days.

Frankly, I'm glad that I left when I did. No regrets except for the long, peaceful days when the Old Man didn't have the office on the phone every day. We used to send a "situation" cable to them every Wednesday and an ETA a couple of days beforehand!
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  #885  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:38
Gollywobbler Gollywobbler is offline  
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Originally Posted by McCloggie View Post
From what I've read, it seems that Mr Ferrarini did do all this once he and Capt Schettino had decided to "go public" with the information, as it were.

This should not be a case of even thinking about the "going public" aspect. You cannot hide a sinking cruise liner so everything will be known at some date. From where I sit, the Operations Manager level job is to provide assistance - not to deal with the press. That is taken care of by a specialist.


The real blame game is that Costa claim that they knew nothing about the fiasco before the authorities were told but Capt Schettino says that they did. Maybe it is de rigueur to have private conversations first so that the Ops Manager will not be taken by surprise when the brown stuff hits the fan publicly?

See above. The ship must inform the 2nd line support onshore. It should be in Costa's SMS that the 2nd line support mobilises the 3rd line of Senior Management. You refer to the "brown stuff hitting the fan" - nobody at this stage should be worrying about that. Let the Senior Management sort that one out. Ops Manager is there to provide support and report the facts.

Costa are being quite light on their feet, though - they say that their "central ops room" or the equivalent were not informed. Capt Schettino didn't say where Mr Ferrarini was at the relevant times but why would he be in this central ops room after 9.30pm local time on a Friday? He's not a shift-worker, surely?

I am used to having a duty emergency number that our vessels can call 24/7. The phone is on a desk and there is also a mobile (same number) for out of office hours. There may be a DPA (Designated Person Ashore) or there may be a Duty Roster and Duty Manager then takes the call, mobilises the local response (2nd Line) who in turn notify senior management (3rd line). Senior management will always be informed, but will only act as required.

Capt Schettino is adamant that he had one-to-one conversations with Mr Ferrarini alone, so where was the latter when these conversations took place? Perhaps the "central ops room" is not told anything either until the company already knows about the problem at a very senior level? That's one of the many mysteries that needs clearing up, in my view.
As we can see, Mr Ferrarini could have been anywhere. In addition to the Coastguard ops room I would expect a company one as well. But this is my point - the Costa response procedures just do not seem strong enough or clear enough. Alternatively, if the procedures are OK they are being ignored either through ignorance through lack of training or on purpose. Either way, the Costa SMS does not appear to be doing what the IMO expected when the SMS regulations were brought in.

McC
Hi McC

I only have one question, please. These days, anything involving any sort of digital technology can be hacked into. I've no idea how cyber-espionage works but there seems to be a lot of it around.

Does the SMS take this fact into account, please?

What I'm getting at is this: You are completely right in all that you say about the Ops Manager's responsibilities etc, and everything I've read suggests firmly that Mr Ferrarini allegedly did absolutely everything that he should have done.

However, whose responsibility is it to make sure that concerned family & friends of those on board, and the people on board themselves, cannot find out about an incident in an uncontrolled manner? Or rather, I suppose, does the SMS foresee this possibility? I'm not so worried about the media as I am about the people most directly involved, if you see what I mean?

I think there is a problem - solely because of the digital age, if you like. I'm wondering whether ship-owners, the IMO etc have a coherent game-plan for dealing with this aspect of the problem?

Many thanks

Gill
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  #886  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:51
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Hi Piero

...The film was made about 200-300m from Gabbanniara. This suggests to me that there is a fairly strong current in that area and maybe the current wouldn't be affected by whatever a fairly gentle wind was doing?

So we have what seems to be established as a NE breeze pushing the ship towards Gabbaniara. Would a current in the water also affect the way she would drift, please? Presumably it would?

If we stick with my theory about a current, is there anywhere that I can find out about local currents in that area, at the relevant time, please?

Many thanks

Gill
Hi Gill,
don't worry about keeping my brains working, it's nothing but a good exercise!
As for the fish swarming in the video, you must consider also the undertow effect, and the presence of scuba divers and cameraman.
I haven't any notice of strong permanent currents near Giglio coast; they are affected by the wind, tide, etc and are variable according the hour, meteo conditions, etc.
Here's a link with a video animation of foreseen currents direction in the area (Concordia lays at the crossing of the two white lines).

http://video.repubblica.it/dossier/n...ne/86255/84644

This anyway don't says much of the real condition the 13 janaury.
Piero
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  #887  
Old 23rd January 2012, 14:57
Gollywobbler Gollywobbler is offline  
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Frankly, I'm glad that I left when I did. No regrets except for the long, peaceful days when the Old Man didn't have the office on the phone every day. We used to send a "situation" cable to them every Wednesday and an ETA a couple of days beforehand!
Hehehehehe!

Presumably nowadays, the owner can pester the Old Man every five minutes and anyone else who wants to can do so as well?!

Cheers

Gill
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  #888  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:02
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Andrew Craig-Bennett Andrew Craig-Bennett is offline  
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Originally Posted by Split View Post
The fear you mention is justified! With more than 4000 souls on board it is a safe bet that there were 1000 mobile phones there, too. and you can ring anywhere.

You can get smashing photos with the new ones!

You have to be good at covering up to get away with much, these days.

Frankly, I'm glad that I left when I did. No regrets except for the long, peaceful days when the Old Man didn't have the office on the phone every day. We used to send a "situation" cable to them every Wednesday and an ETA a couple of days beforehand!
I can tell a very silly story about a smaller cruise ship making a call in the Southern Philippines, Moslem insurgents, a Master from the Old School and a passenger who happened to be a Reuters correspondent...but perhaps not on this thread...
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  #889  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:18
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Andrew Craig-Bennett Andrew Craig-Bennett is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gollywobbler View Post
Hehehehehe!

Presumably nowadays, the owner can pester the Old Man every five minutes and anyone else who wants to can do so as well?!

Cheers

Gill
And not just on the phone, either.

See Cisco's comment on the garbage log, above.

What every Old Man needs, these days, is a Fearsome Secretary, to keep the bumf in order, act as gatekeeper and stop him being pestered by all and sundry, but the job of Captain's Writer was one of the first to go.

The Furness Withy passenger ship "Queen of Bermuda", which had a fearsomely complicated engine and boiler room set up and a staff of 80 in the engineering department, ran to a Chief Engineer's Writer as well. (She was before my time, but her youngest Chief Engineer, John Newton, became Joint Managing Director of P&OCL...)
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  #890  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:21
bjmt5r bjmt5r is offline  
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Presumably nowadays, the owner can pester the Old Man every five minutes and anyone else who wants to can do so as well?!


In one word - YES. That's why I unplug them on joining. I have GMDSS qualified officers to deal with that. If cargo related I get a call from them - STCW Rest Hours wins here.
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  #891  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:21
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Hi, Split,

Many thanks. There was obviously nothing remotely either necessary or proper about the way in which Costa Concordia was being navigated that evening. Far be it from me to suggest that there might have been.

Best,

BY
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  #892  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:32
McCloggie McCloggie is offline  
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I only have one question, please. These days, anything involving any sort of digital technology can be hacked into. I've no idea how cyber-espionage works but there seems to be a lot of it around.

Does the SMS take this fact into account, please?


It is up to the individual company in question as to what is or is not in their SMS.

While many companies may be able to stipulate that crew and relations should not contact the press or use mobile phones in, say, a particular offshore environment you cannot say what 4000 members of the public will do.

You could ban all mobile phones on the ship and provide safe/secure communications.

Certainly the systems that I have worked with make a point of saying no press contact but the scandal of hacking into mobile communications has only recently come to light and I know of no SMS that mentions this. Having said that, the ISPS security aspect is different again and not something that I would want or would be prepared to be drawin into discussion about on a public forum.

McC
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  #893  
Old 23rd January 2012, 15:48
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Originally Posted by John Cassels View Post
Not able to comment on 99% of the posts on this thread as they
are much too advanced for my simple mind.
However , Your post , I can , Derek.
Spurling pipe can be cleared and D claw can be released even if
anchor has walked back a trifle. But if the bar has been put over
at the compressor and has locked a link ( like it's supposed to) then
you're knacked. You will have to put in gear and take the weight off
before being able to let go.
Thanks for that John ; good point . In an emergency a burning torch can become a very good tool .
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  #894  
Old 23rd January 2012, 16:00
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gollywobbler View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O5jKC2gISg

Morning, All

The Italian Police seem to have released some really clear pictures of the underwater parts of the ship.

At one stage, the divers are inspecting what looks like strips of metal, lying on some rocks. A bit earlier, the ship's name is clearly shown - either on the underwater stbd bow or possibly the stern? I'm not sure where that bit of filming was done. I'm wondering whether the strips of metal were torn from the side of the hull or the superstructure?

I'd be very grateful if someone with a better understanding than me would be kind enough to watch the film and describe whereabouts all the outside bits of filming are likely to have taken place, please.

The innards are easy enough to understand - everything that is bolted down (eg tables) show how steeply the ship is now listing. I'm not sure what I'm looking at outside the ship, though.

Many thanks

Gill
Hi Gill,
It's the stern (transom type): under the name you can see the home port name (Genova), and immediately after is filmed a propeller.

As for the metal stripes, they seens too thin for coming from the hull; is more likely from the superstructres.
Piero
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  #895  
Old 23rd January 2012, 16:44
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Andrew Craig-Bennett Andrew Craig-Bennett is offline  
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Originally Posted by McCloggie View Post
I only have one question, please. These days, anything involving any sort of digital technology can be hacked into. I've no idea how cyber-espionage works but there seems to be a lot of it around.

Does the SMS take this fact into account, please?


It is up to the individual company in question as to what is or is not in their SMS.

While many companies may be able to stipulate that crew and relations should not contact the press or use mobile phones in, say, a particular offshore environment you cannot say what 4000 members of the public will do.

You could ban all mobile phones on the ship and provide safe/secure communications.

Certainly the systems that I have worked with make a point of saying no press contact but the scandal of hacking into mobile communications has only recently come to light and I know of no SMS that mentions this. Having said that, the ISPS security aspect is different again and not something that I would want or would be prepared to be drawn into discussion about on a public forum.

McC
Agreed; same goes for us, both as regards ISM and ISPS.

My view is that its the SAFETY management system, not the image control system.

On a related point a GSM phone works up to about 25 miles offshore, which is also about the range for TV, so if you want peace and quiet and less traffic you keep about 40-50 miles off. Which I am now enforcing as a policy, amidst much sulking.
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  #896  
Old 23rd January 2012, 16:48
Split Split is offline  
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And not just on the phone, either.

See Cisco's comment on the garbage log, above.

What every Old Man needs, these days, is a Fearsome Secretary, to keep the bumf in order, act as gatekeeper and stop him being pestered by all and sundry, but the job of Captain's Writer was one of the first to go.

The Furness Withy passenger ship "Queen of Bermuda", which had a fearsomely complicated engine and boiler room set up and a staff of 80 in the engineering department, ran to a Chief Engineer's Writer as well. (She was before my time, but her youngest Chief Engineer, John Newton, became Joint Managing Director of P&OCL...)
How about the Missus ? Unpaid--that means they are dedicated.
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  #897  
Old 23rd January 2012, 16:59
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Andrew Craig-Bennett Andrew Craig-Bennett is offline  
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How about the Missus ? Unpaid--that means they are dedicated.
Well, I have certainly known some Dragons (a certain Mrs Commodore springs to mind!)

I'd gladly offer a salary to a Captain's Wife with secretarial skills
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  #898  
Old 23rd January 2012, 17:01
callpor callpor is offline   SN Supporter
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Sorry about the mess!

I tried to split the post into colours and italics and failed!

McC
You did a fine job.

Reading your post I recalled the news report of 19 January that the President of RINA had resigned, stating that he wanted to disassociate RINA with certain remarks being made. Don't want to be malicious, but perhaps the real reason for his resignation was the fact that RINA not only class the Costa Concordia, but also issued the DOC for Costa and the SMC for the vessels whch for the uninitiated means that RINA was the ISM external auditor of their Safety Management Systems. The vessel has a deficiency free record of 7 Port State Inspections on Equasis since entering service in 2006, so clearly the operation was perfect?
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  #899  
Old 23rd January 2012, 17:10
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I did wonder about that but I did a bit of digging and concluded that his resignation was absolutely "pukka". He said what we have all been saying, here, - that Costa really ought not to be claiming that they knew nothing of such close passes - and it may well be that someone from Carnival was on the phone to various RINA board members soon afterwards, singing the praises of LR...

Good for him, I say.
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  #900  
Old 23rd January 2012, 18:06
Jacktar1 Jacktar1 is offline  
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Well put Steve....

Stephen
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