CLAN OGILVY facts? - Ships Nostalgia
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CLAN OGILVY facts?

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  #1  
Old 18th November 2007, 19:16
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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CLAN OGILVY facts?

Having been going through the survivors report on the CLAN OGILVY I came across some discrepencies so I started looking around various sources. Result is that if one or two people publish something then it must be true. whereas some what are considered good sources might not be quite as good.

The survivors report from the unfortunate Captain Clough (he was sunk again on his way home when the RODNEY STAR was sunk) states that 36 crew were lost. The latest and very good Clan Line book states 61 were lost. This number also appears on the convoy website and in Duncan Hawes book. Looking at GWG shows 23 crew and 3 gunners lost. This is supported by the 1948 published "In Danger's Hour" by Gordon Holman.

This provides us with three figures eacch from what one would hope would be a reliable sources. It is possible that Captain Clough, at his boat separated from the others, did not have a full count of those rescued, particularly as one landed 5 days after the other two boats were picked up, and this in Portuguese Guinea. CWG is usually accurate but does have problems as some names at Tower Hill died of natural causes, but the majority of CLAN OGILVY names appear on the Chittagong Memorial. The other problem with CWG is that in the cases of Naval or Military Gunners a lot do not have the name of the ship on their memorial.

What is the right answer? Where did the 61 number come from? How can one ensure that the right numbers are used.

The thing is that we cannot assume the answers freely published on the internet are true, and must ensure that we don't just throw information onto this site from unsafe sources.
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  #2  
Old 18th November 2007, 20:46
Jim S Jim S is offline   SN Supporter
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Roger Jordan's - The World's Merchant Fleets 1939 gives figures from the Clan Ogilvy sinking as 61 dead, 21 survivors
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  #3  
Old 18th November 2007, 21:30
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Banni Banni is offline  
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According to merchant Fleets by Haws.

20/03/1941 ; torpedoed aft, blowing off her stern by U105 550 miles north west of dakar. the hit also exploded the ammunition store, the ship sank by the stern in four minutes. 61 killed. She was one of 12 ships lost to two subs.
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  #4  
Old 18th November 2007, 23:17
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melliget melliget is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltic Wal View Post
Looking at GWG shows 23 crew and 3 gunners lost.
I take it you mean CWGC, Wal. I'm not clear how you came to this number. The CWGC unfortunately doesn't allow searching on unit/ship. Do you mean you checked individual names on CWGC from another list?

The last available official logs and crew agreements for the CLAN OGILVY (official no 137782) may be found here at TNA:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0

regards,
Martin
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  #5  
Old 19th November 2007, 08:17
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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As I say, people pick up the number and it gets continued through all books as the right number, but where did it come from? If it appears in a booke then it must be right? Sorry but if research is done from another book (as it is done a lot of the time) then the error is continued, the point I am making. Banni has quoted 61, but no source. It has now appeared on the internet, so is it right? I prefer the other sources which states 26, but through history now I will always be wrong as I am a minority who has spent time checking rather than using an original quote tht possibly came from Lloyds War Loss, and I don't trust that source fully.

Martin, I have matched all the CWG names against the ship they were lost on, providing me with the counts. This was initially done with their Memorial Books lent to me by the MNWB in preperation for the Book of Remembrance at the National Arboretum. Took months, and idn't 100% accurate but the discrepencies are the odd one or two, not 25 (the 3rd lifeboat?)
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  #6  
Old 19th November 2007, 09:20
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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Find me the other 35 names and I will change my view.

12th March 1941: Sailed from Freetown on passage from Chittagong to London and Glasgow in convoy SL 68 with 1, 000t tea, 2, 000t pig iron and 2, 000t groundnuts. 20th March 1941: Torpedoed in No. 5 hold and sunk by German submarine U 105 in North Atlantic, 550m NW Dakar. 23 crew and 3 gunners lost. 1st April 1941: One lifeboat with survivors rescued by Spanish ship CABO VILLANO. 1st April 1941: Second lifeboat with survivors rescued by British ship KING EDGAR and landed at Freetown. 5th April 1941: One lifeboat landed at Suzana, Portuguese Guinea.

Surname,Forenames,Rank,Service,memorial
AKBAR,Ali,Seaman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
ALI,Jamshed,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
ALI,Tahid,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
ALTABALI,,Trimmer,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
ARSHADULLA,,Seaman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
AZAM,Ali,Oiler,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
BOX,Alfred Richard,Able Seaman,RN,Portsmouth
EUSUPH,Wazidoola,Bhandary,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
FULLER,Robert Edward,Marine,RM,Chatham
GUFFOOR,Abd,Winchman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
HUQ,Sherazul,Cassab,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
JAFFERULLA,,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
KARIM,Abd,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
KOYER,Abd,Seacunny,MN,
MEAH,Lall,Trimmer,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
MEAH,Olly,Trimmer,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
MIAN,Ashoo,Bhandary,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
MIAN,Goloo,Trimmer,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
MIAN,Kala,Trimmer,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
MONRO,William Small,5th Engineer,MN,Tower Hill
MURRAY,John Angus,Assistant Steward,MN,Tower Hill
RAHMATULLA,,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
REASATULLA,,Fireman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
RELKE,John,Chief Steward,MN,Tower Hill
ROHOMAN,Khololl,Seaman,MN,Bombay - Chittagong
SHERMAN,Leonard,Able Seaman,RN,Portsmouth
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  #7  
Old 19th November 2007, 09:48
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melliget melliget is offline  
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I don't disagree with you, Wal, just wanted clarification on how you arrived at 26. Thanks for the explanation. I've seen similar examples of what you describe happen elsewhere. It also happens in genealogy, where someone makes an assumption without checking primary sources.

regards,
Martin
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  #8  
Old 19th November 2007, 17:41
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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Another interesting point for the believers of the 61 lost.

Captains report states crew of 82, including gunners.
Three lifeboats got away, 4th was unusable. With the 61 theory this would have meant 7 per boat, yet when they met up with the BENWYVIS with an overloaded lifeboat and 9 on a raft, they only transferred 19 to two of their own boats to even up the loadings.

The point I am getting to is that plagarism is all well and good, as long as you are taking it from a valid source. I was told when I started researching "Don't take everything at face value".
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  #9  
Old 19th November 2007, 23:21
benjidog benjidog is offline
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Baltic Wal,

I can't add to the discussion on this particular question but would like to make a general point.

ANY information published on the Internet should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some information is not researched properly in the first place, people copy mercilessly from one website to another and if an error posted on one site subsequently gets corrected, by copies elsewhere have taken on a life of their own and do not get corrected.

Even with original source material there can be variations as you show very clearly in this case. The only option I can see is to cite your sources on the site (especially if you are using the Directory) and point out any discrepancies you find between them.

Sadly, sometimes it is just impossible to get definitive answers.

Regards,

Brian
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  #10  
Old 20th November 2007, 19:55
Billy1963 Billy1963 is offline  
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Lloyds War Losses Vol. I, states:

"Crew of 82 including 1 Marine & 2 Naval Gunners. 36 missing, 25 killed"

As those initially reported missing were never reported later found, the two numbers have obviously been added together and given as the final figure of 61.

I originally sent info to Convoy web for the loss of the ship some years back, but it has not been updated with the info. I later found from my full index file of those commemorated on the Bombay/Chittagong War Memroial.

Tower Hill Panel 30.

MONRO , Fifth Engineer Officer, WILLIAM SMALL, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. 20th March 1941. Age 20. Son of Davina Monro, of Glasgow.

MURRAY , Assistant Steward, JOHN ANGUS, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. 20th March 1941. Age 24. Son of Donald and Catherine Murray.

RELKE , Chief Steward, JOHN, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow). Merchant Navy. 20th March 1941. Age 54. Husband of Amy Relke, of Gravesend, Kent.

DEMS Gunners Commemorated Portsmouth/Chatham Naval Memorials

BOX , Able Seaman, ALFRED RICHARD, P/JX 223856. H.M.S. President III. Royal Navy. (lost in S.S. Clan Ogilvy) 20th March 1941. Age 18. Son of Richard Alfred and Rose Florence Box, of Islington, London.

FULLER , Marine, ROBERT EDWARD, CH/24089. H.M.S. President III. Royal Marines. lost in S.S. Clan Ogilvy 20th March 1941. Age 41. Husband of Doris Fuller, of Chapeltown, Sheffield.

SHERMAN , Able Seaman, LEONARD, P/JX 223933. H.M.S. President III. Royal Navy. (lost in S.S. Clan Ogilvy). 20th March 1941. Son of Henry and Maria Sherman, of Kingsbury, Middlesex.

Bombay/Chittagong War Memroial.

ABDUL GHAFUR, Winchman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 32.

ABDUL KARIM, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 35.

ABDUL KHAIR, Seacunny, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941.

ALI AKBAR, Seaman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 40.

ALI AZAM, Oiler, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 31.

ALI MIAN, Trimmer, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941.

ALTAB ALI, Trimmer, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 39.

ARSHAD ULLAH, Seaman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 32.

ASU MIAN, Bhandary, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 36.

GULU MIAN, Trimmer, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 21.

JAFAR ULLAH, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 34.

JAMSHED ALI, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 24.

KALA MIAN, Trimmer, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 42.

KHALIL RAHMAN, Seaman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 41.

LAL MIAN, Trimmer, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941.

RAHMAT ALI, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 35.

RIASAT ULLAH, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 46.

SIRAJ-UL-HAQ, Cassab, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 40.

TAHED ALI, Fireman, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 24.

YUSUF, Bhandary, S.S. Clan Ogilvy (Glasgow), Indian Merchant Navy. 20 March 1941. Age 26.
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  #11  
Old 21st November 2007, 11:18
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Baltic Wal Baltic Wal is offline  
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Thanks billy, your names match mine, those reported missing were probably the boat that landed on the 5th in Portuguese Guinea. Goes to show how once it appears in print it must be right, and everybody follows. Would be good if we could at least get the Convoy's database corrected.

I wonder howmany other miss readings there are.

In 20 years time people will believe that it was an American ship that captured the Enigma machine. Afterall the event was filmed
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