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  #1  
Old 8th January 2008, 05:01
Kenneth Morley Kenneth Morley is offline  
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Question Pamir

Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth
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  #2  
Old 8th January 2008, 10:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Morley View Post
Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth
Some are still around; I had a visit from one at Christmas! He wrote a book about his voyage, PAMIR, by Hillary Tunstall-Behrens.
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  #3  
Old 9th January 2008, 03:43
Kenneth Morley Kenneth Morley is offline  
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Hi Hugh, The name does'nt ring a bell, what voyage was your friend on the Pamir? Kenneth
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  #4  
Old 9th January 2008, 22:03
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G'day Ken, The voyage my friend was in her was early in 1952 to Rio de Janeiro by which time she had returned to the German flag. So. I would think it fairly unlikely that anyone you sailed with would still be there. Hilary shared a two berth cabin with Horst-Arno Fenski who, in the book, he says had been a radio man in a U.Boat. He had, in fact, been the commander of U.410!
He lists the names of everyone on board amongst which were the captain, Greiff; 1st mate, Eggers; 2nd mate, von Gernet; 3rd mate, Waldenburger; 4th mate, Fischer; an old sail-maker called Jimmy. The language all orders were given in was Platt Deutsch, a North German dialect.
The voyage got off to a bad start with them having a hard blow off the North Foreland when they had the Margate life-boat to stand-bye for a spell.
It's a well written account with a fore-word by Alan Villiers. If you fancy owning a copy I think you may find one on ABE BOOKS web-site. The title is,
PAMIR, A Voyage to Rio in a Four Masted Barque. Published in 1956 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd..
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  #5  
Old 10th January 2008, 03:49
Kenneth Morley Kenneth Morley is offline  
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Hi Hugh, Thanks for reply,I left her 1945. Have you had a look at the German film of her going down I was lucky Rudd had the DVD sent to me,it brings back great memories. By the way I was with Trinity House on Lightship Shipwash 71. also a couple of change overs with "Patricia" towing, a long time ago. Kenneth
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  #6  
Old 10th January 2008, 06:36
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Pamir

Hello Ken, suggest you look up my thread/post 14/12/07 headed Cutty Sark and Pamir.
I later sailed with Desmond Champion and Andy Keyworth both as Masters.
Des Champion's older brother was a earlier Master and both brothers also served on earlier voyages as mates. I think that Andy was on the ship from the early NZ flag days. There is a crew list somewhere on the net, are you aware of it? If not let me know and I will try to dig it out of my favourites perhaps.

I also worked ashore with Jack Lord who sailed a voyage or two on Pamir before joining the top sail schooner "Huia" ,she was on the Tasman run, carrying explosives if I remember rightly . Jack was an older man, probably 60 when I knew him in the early 60's
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  #7  
Old 11th January 2008, 21:57
Kenneth Morley Kenneth Morley is offline  
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Hi Bob, I sailed with Roy Champion (Captain) I do have complete lists of crews under NZ flag. When I payed off 1945 I was given the chance of sailing on the "Huia" but chose to take a trimmers job on the Raranga UK bound,great experience and bloody hard work, I also worked the Aussie Coast for 2 years fireman then greaser I liked being below. Kenneth
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  #8  
Old 21st September 2008, 02:27
Kenneth Morley Kenneth Morley is offline  
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Pamir

Hi all, To-day 21September the PAMIR at 11/30am went down with great loss of life. My first ship I cannot forget her .All thoghs whom lost thier lives rest in peace, Kenneth Morley
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  #9  
Old 21st September 2008, 03:36
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Ken, I can uderstand your emotions, The Pamir was boyhood favorite of mine and I was on the Rangitane one day out of Southampton the day she went down
Bob
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  #10  
Old 3rd October 2008, 08:38
M. Morris M. Morris is offline  
 
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EX Pamir crew

I am posting on behalf of Jack Cameron who was onboard the Pamir 1942 and 1945. He was most interested that I had found this site and remembers your names. He is just finishing his book that contains chapters on the Pamir under Roy Champion. He lives on the Gold Coast and can be contacted 0755931401.
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  #11  
Old 4th October 2008, 14:23
JimC JimC is offline  
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Hi lads!

I was in the same storm and we, like many others could do nothing. Too far away and it was so bad we had problems ourselves.

Jim C.
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  #12  
Old 5th October 2008, 22:51
sidsal sidsal is offline  
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Hi all. On HMS Conway - the training ship there was a cadet - The Honourable Gerald Balfour who later became Viscount Taprain. He died a couple of years ago. He sailed as a deck hand on Pamir after the war and there was quite a bit in the Press about this titled deckhand. He was a nice chap - possibly some of you knew him.
In 1944 I was an apprentice on a Canadian "Fort" boat and we called at Durban to be fumigated. The Pamir was lying at anchor there and another cadet and I called alongside her in the motor boat. There was only the master and, I believe, one other aboard as the crew had scarpered as she had taken weeks and weeks to come from Capetown. He tried to peruade us to jump ship and sail with him but , being wartime we declined.
Dates and facts may be somewhat astray as it is a long tome ago.
Sid Davies
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  #13  
Old 9th January 2009, 11:12
are39 are39 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth Morley View Post
Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth
HI Ken
Try George Gunn C/O port of napier NZ
He was Harbour master but since retired but they would know
Mike bishop
jumi5
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  #14  
Old 25th March 2009, 02:26
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During my recent visit to NZ I discovered that an old Pamir crewman, Ron Montgomery, lives near my brother in law and plays lawn bowls with him.
They are aged 88 and 87 respectively and are said to be gun bowlers.

Ron is not a computer user but after prompting by another friend he has agreed to be interviewed by the editor of the local news paper about his sea going days so I hope to report further in the near future.

Regards Bob
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  #15  
Old 25th March 2009, 21:27
Shipbuilder Shipbuilder is offline
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I first put the following under the heading of Working Aloft, and it was well viewed and had a lot of replies. Unfortunately, most of them went off at a tangent and started talking about steamers and motorships! I know all about them, I sailed in 19 of them between 1961 and late 1992 and was not unduly perturbed about going aloft in them. What I really meant the question to aply to was "commercial cargo-carrying sailing ships," vessels like PAMIR, PASSAT, ARCHIBALD RUSSELL and a thousand others.
Bob

Here is original question:
----------------------------------------------
I know that a number of you have served in "real" square riggers, carrying cargo and wonder what your thoughts are on the following:

From my very earliest years, I have been interested in sailing ships ever since reading my grandfather's copies of THE WIDE WORLD magazine in the 1950s. Tales of the wrecks of the CRICCIETH CASTLE, DUNDONALD and SVAERDSTAD springing immediately to mind. All my life, I have avidly read the old autobiographies of men in sail (and still do at the age of 65). When I left school in 1959, if there had been a single British commercial sailing ship around, I would have certainly been apprenticed to her! I went to sea in early 1961 as radio officer and finally left in late 1992! During those years, I never shirked any duties that might take me aloft. Indeed, I often revelled in them despite an initial "cold fear" of heights.

But what of real sailing ships! I could, and still can, imagine reaching the t'gallant doublings and pulling myself up to the royal yard up the greased royal mast using backstays and halliards only and no ratlines. But what still strikes a certain "doubt" in my mind is the negotaition of the futtock shrouds to the lower tops. I still wonder would I have the courage to climb, leaning backwards, to the top. The very thought of it turns my blood cold!

I have been aloft in schooners and the like, but nothing with futtcock shrouds.

How difficult and terrifying was it in "real"terms? I am now 65 and will probably never have the chance, but as I am still physically very supple, I would be more than happy to give it at try. What was it really like?
What were your feelings and fears when first climbing to the "tops?"

Also, when going up the weather side to the mainyard, was it an awful long step to the footrope, or did you go the the lee side and move across the forward part of the mast?

The above refers to cargo carriers, I have little or no interest in modern sail training ships (unless they are of the old ilk such as PADUA, VIKING, POMMERN & MAGDALENE VINNEN etc.

Bob
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Last edited by Shipbuilder; 25th March 2009 at 21:39..
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  #16  
Old 25th March 2009, 23:28
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I am wondering if Ken Morley or Jack Cameron, posted above, recall Ron Montgomery. The crew members that sailed on Pamir must be down to a small and exclusive group of men by now,.

Bob
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  #17  
Old 22nd April 2009, 21:59
James Vaughan James Vaughan is offline  
 
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Hi Hugh,

I’m a new member doing research on my uncle’s ship (USCGS MENGES DE320) which was torpedoed off the coast of Algeria in ’44. The sub, U-371, was commanded by Horst-Arno Fenski who you referenced as sailing on the Pamir in 1952. I’ve been able to get a copy of the book through interlibrary loan and found it to be a very good read. But, since the shipmate – Horst – is only mentioned by his first name, I was wondering how you know it was in fact Fenski? Like most good stories, the villain tends to be the most fascinating character and I’ve been trying to find out all I can about him – especially his early death in Hamburg. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there.

Thanks,
Jim Vaughan
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  #18  
Old 15th June 2009, 23:00
AJWILL AJWILL is offline  
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Hi Hugh,

I’m a new member doing research on my uncle’s ship (USCGS MENGES DE320) which was torpedoed off the coast of Algeria in ’44. The sub, U-371, was commanded by Horst-Arno Fenski who you referenced as sailing on the Pamir in 1952. I’ve been able to get a copy of the book through interlibrary loan and found it to be a very good read. But, since the shipmate – Horst – is only mentioned by his first name, I was wondering how you know it was in fact Fenski? Like most good stories, the villain tends to be the most fascinating character and I’ve been trying to find out all I can about him – especially his early death in Hamburg. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there.

Thanks,
Jim Vaughan
Hiya Jim
I have also looked but havn't found much at all.my first experience of going to sea i had a distressing voyage in 1957 when i was 15 i got a job as Deck Boy onboard a rust bucket called SS SUNRISE a 5.000 tonn general cargo we loaded china clay from Fowe to Portland Maine,hwhat happened there is another story!!from Maine we to Savanna Georgia light where we loaded scrap metal, for Leath in Edingbourgh,on the way back we ran into Hurricane Carrie,of course as soon as we hit our cargo shifted and gave us a very bad liste to port,we had a distress signal from the PAMIR.
but the liste we hade made it impossible to alter our course.we had to ride it out,we did eventually made Leath,but beleave me it wasn't pleasant. take care all....Regards to you all!!! Alan (BUNGY) Williams P/S she was under a German Flag at the time

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  #19  
Old 16th June 2009, 08:26
Billieboy Billieboy is offline  
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Sailing Masters

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G'day Ken,
It's a well written account with a fore-word by Alan Villiers. If you fancy owning a copy I think you may find one on ABE BOOKS web-site. The title is,
PAMIR, A Voyage to Rio in a Four Masted Barque. Published in 1956 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd..
When I was growing up in Barry, our next door neighbor was an old salt called George Mallinson, an expat Scot, who was a Sailing Master in the Australian grain trade between the wars. He'd had Allan Villiers in his crew one time as second mate. Whenever Villiers came on the TV, (in the black and white days), he'd be grumbling and growling!
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  #20  
Old 16th June 2009, 19:44
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Hugh Ferguson Hugh Ferguson is offline  
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Do you remember, Billyboy, when the Pamir and Passat lay stem to stern in Penarth Dock with grain cargoes which had been condemned. I spent the day aboard both of them but cannot remember the year.
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Old 16th June 2009, 20:40
Billieboy Billieboy is offline  
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Pamir and Passat

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Do you remember, Billyboy, when the Pamir and Passat lay stem to stern in Penarth Dock with grain cargoes which had been condemned. I spent the day aboard both of them but cannot remember the year.
Sorry Hugh, they were never in Penarth docks,so far as I can remember, as Penarth docks was only a tidal lay by wooden jetty, (they would be on the mud twice a day), they were berthed in No. 2 Dock at Barry lying alongside at Ranks' Mill. The year would have been 1948, somewhere around April/May, as I think that they came up channel on a Sunday before or after Whitsun as there weren't many people on the Barry Island Beach at the time. The ships were fumigated and the cargo discharged in Barry. Both ships lay there for a considerable time, before being sold. To get to the No.2 Dock in Barry it would be only a short drive from Penarth station.

I had good contacts with the docks, as my aunt was the secretary to the Dock Manager; Nothing happened without her say so. I remember my old neighbor saying that the crews, "Needed a good talking to", for arriving with all the cockies! I hope this helps, it is, after all, 62 years ago!

Last edited by Billieboy; 16th June 2009 at 20:42.. Reason: Grandma
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  #22  
Old 16th June 2009, 21:15
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Hugh Ferguson Hugh Ferguson is offline  
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I knew it was somewhere thereabouts. I remember inviting one of the crew back to my home in Newport for a few hours. All he could think about was getting back to sea again, he was really chocka.
I remember meeting one old shell-back on board one of them, and the next thing I saw he was halfway up the rigging to the mainyard and I'm certain he was well into his seventies!! At that time I believe they both belonged to Ericson and flew the Finnish flag. They then passed into German ownership which is when my friend Hilary sailed in the Pamir.
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  #23  
Old 18th June 2009, 04:13
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You're right Bob, the ex-Pamir men must be down to a small exclusive group now. Jack Barbour (I think the spelling is correct) was 2nd or 3rd officer in Monowai in 1954...I believe he was sailmaker in Pamir at one time.
Sailed with "Slim" Martin in Karamu in 1955 and he claimed to have been a DB in Pamir.
Do those names ring any bells?
Jim S
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  #24  
Old 18th June 2009, 05:22
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You are right Jim, they are indeed a small group. The name Slim Martin rings a feint bell but he only other Pamir members that I actually sailed with was Des Champion when he was master of the Kaitangata and Andy Keyworth who was master of the Navua, both during the late 50's

Bob
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  #25  
Old 19th June 2009, 04:21
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Hi Bob,
I never sailed with Des Champion or Andy Keyworth but the names are part of USSCo history. When I was in Navua (1956-57) we had four different masters..."Tich" Brayshay, "D.F" Dillner, Bennett & Schofield.
Tich was vertically challenged and we had to build him two sets of steps so he could see over the bridge dodgers. Dillner had a love affair with the Direction Finder system (DF)...I think he wore the earphones to bed.
All the best,
Jim S
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