Shen Neng 1 aground on the Great Barrier Reef. - Page 6 - Ships Nostalgia
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Shen Neng 1 aground on the Great Barrier Reef.

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  #126  
Old 15th April 2010, 10:02
Billieboy Billieboy is offline  
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So, the Master did not allow for the mate missing the a/c point, had the cours remained on 000° then there would have been nothing to hit, could be a case of the 2/O trying to get some kudos by altering ealier and saving a mile or two.
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  #127  
Old 15th April 2010, 10:44
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Nowt to add to the last two points.

Being a good boy I have summarised the .pdf and sent it to our Marine Superintendent to email to our ships just to add to their pile of light reading - with a warning to dust off the Master's Standing Orders - before he flies off to the Group Safety Management Meeting tonight!
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  #128  
Old 15th April 2010, 10:51
trotterdotpom trotterdotpom is offline  
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The Master and Mate appeared in court today and were bailed to appear in July sometime. That will give the Magistrate time to peruse this thread and decided on how long they'll get.

The shipping company, whoever they are, sent out a relief Master last week, so it doesn't look as though they're too optimistic.

John T.
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  #129  
Old 15th April 2010, 10:58
Billieboy Billieboy is offline  
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Someone should supply the magistrates with a bound copy John T. Seems curt and dried to me, but then I'm an engineer!
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  #130  
Old 15th April 2010, 11:11
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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Originally Posted by John Cassels View Post
Can Assure you Bill is alive and well and watching all of you !.
One of his numerous identities wouldn't be Octavious would it?
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Last edited by chadburn; 15th April 2010 at 11:16..
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  #131  
Old 15th April 2010, 11:14
alastairrussell alastairrussell is offline  
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Billie

I suggest you go into the RightShip website and read their ‘frequently asked questions’ section.

I thought it was strange that the Shen Neng 1 lost a star the minute she hit the putty! Iain is right when he says she was a 3 star ship when she left China and now she is a 2 star because of the incident on her departure from Gladstone! See below!

Andrew,

Why do I get the feeling that BHP might have got dragged into being very interested in writing a software programme that checkouts charter ships? Do you not think it was because of what they learnt during their wee spell (6 months) in that court in London (The Parkgate Case)?

I have pasted some of the relevant Q and A.

What makes RightShip different to other systems?

- Our system is the most comprehensive available, with extensive data about over 54000 dry bulk, petroleum and liner ships.

- The only system that gives you an acceptability rating for the ship, as well as more detailed data about it.
- Assesses each ship’s suitability for a specific task.
- The fastest way to get this quality of information online.
- Easy online access via web and simple user interface.
- Low subscription rates for 24/7 access.

Are your evaluations based on physical inspections?

RightShip’s system is not based solely on vessel inspections. We have developed a risk matrix approach, that uses many sources of information to determine the vessel’s risk rating.

If the system’s evaluation indicates a higher risk, we may carry out a physical inspection to verify the ship’s condition and operation is suitable before recommending the ship to a client. If the system rates the ship as an acceptable risk, we do not normally undertake a physical inspection unless it is specifically requested.

How is the RightShip risk rating calculated?

The risk rating is determined by a computer-based algorithm. It calculates risk based on data collected under about 50 risk factors, including as the following as well as other factors: • Flag Risk (determined by statistical assessment of PSC inspection, casualty and Incident performance associated with the particular flag) • Class Risk (determined by statistical assessment of PSC inspection, casualty and Incident performance associated with the particular class society) • Number of Changes of flag, class, owner or manager • The vessel’s casualty history • The vessel’s Berth Reports • The vessel’s terminal reports • The vessel’s PSC performance (including particular attention to multiple deficiencies and/or detentions over a period of time) • The vessel’s age. These and other risk factors go towards a ‘score’, which is then combined with other factors (such as Port State Control performance) to determine the overall star rating. Ships rated as highest risk score less than 72 through the system, while ships rated as lowest risk can score anywhere over 120. Ships scoring 88 and over are likely to be rated as a satisfactory risk without further review. Please also see How does Port State Control inspection affect the rating? and What other factors affect the rating.) It’s also important to remember that data is updated every day and a rating is only valid for the particular customer, for the particular task, on the particular day and time the vet is done.

Does the system help identify “the bad guys” and the “ships of shame”?

It will show by giving a one or two star rating that a ship is unsuitable for a nominated task. (Reasons could be related, for example, to the ship’s building, age, casualty or terminal/port inspection history, its ownership, management, flag or class society.) We do see vessel casualties, or vessels ‘blacklisted’ by ports, that have earlier been rated as unacceptable by our system, and therefore avoided by our clients.

The system also rewards “good guys”. Better risk ratings go to ships whose managers and owners have good records, have been audited by us as ‘preferred suppliers’, or who have been accredited by a quality partner like Green Award.

How can an owner improve a vessel’s rating?

Owners can help ensure satisfactory performance against RightShip’s risk factors by making sure their Safety Management System has adequate procedures for the effective management, supervision and inspection of the vessel and that everyone concerned complies with regulatory requirements.
RightShip’s system has built-in incentives for specific improvements such as:
• Owners’ membership of Intercargo (adds 5 points for all fleet vessels)
• Green Award certification (adds 15 points for certified vessels).
Flags and class societies receive more points for better performance (recorded in MOU annual reports), so changing to a higher-ranked flag or class society may deliver better ratings – however, the system automatically deducts points for changes of flag or class so this option would need to be carefully considered.
Vessels may also get an improved rating after inspection. Owners should be aware that points allocated from inspections are only valid for twelve months.

What other factors affect the rating?

As well as the key scoring risk factors, the rating can also be influenced by factors including:
• Incidents Under Review
• Casualty Under Review
• Lloyds Reported Casualty
• Laid-Up or Under Repair
• Class Suspension / Withdrawal
• Not IACS Classed
• Derate (Target) Flag (designated by RightShip annually, based on poor MOU performance)
• Close-out or change by RightShip to any of the factors above, after owners have provided satisfactory information about the actions they have taken in response to these factors.

When is inspection required for dry bulk vessels?

Many vessels are vetted and approved without the need for an inspection. These are the cases in which RightShip requires a physical inspection of the ship by experienced inspectors before it will consider recommending the vessel as suitable for our customers:
• All high risk vessels (as rated by the online vetting system)
• A vessel that has recorded a detention resulting (or likely to result) in prosecution subsequent to MARPOL or SOLAS infringement
• A vessel that has had a change of owner or manager
• A vessel that has undergone major repairs or modifications
• All Cape vessels at 18 years of age (inspection has 12 month validity)
• All Panamax vessels at 18 years of age (inspection has 12 month validity)
• All Handy vessels at 25 years of age (12 month validity)
• Vessels which meet other criteria set by individual customers, or which a customer asks to be inspected.

Who is behind RightShip?

RightShip was initially created as a boutique joint venture company, operating independently but backed by the resources of major shippers BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto.

The original Ship Vetting information System (SVIS) combined the data resources and knowledge the two companies had developed over many years in their own in house expert vetting systems. The joint venture partners’ aim was to improve their own vetting processes, and at the same time raise standards across the industry so the commercial disadvantages of choosing quality ships were minimised.

Since being formed in 2001, RightShip has grown substantially to serve a global client base far beyond its parent companies. Cargill acquired a one third stake in RightShip in September 2006. RightShip’s independent management team operates and improves the system in the interests of its broad client base.

Last edited by alastairrussell; 15th April 2010 at 11:25..
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  #132  
Old 15th April 2010, 11:22
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Alastair - my recollection is the same as yours - that P&O wrote BHP a very large cheque for the "Iron Parkgate" - but I put the motives behind Rightship elsewhere and more recently.

Specifically, the loss of the "Mineral Diamond", which caused a shudder right through the maritime industry - the ship was lost without trace after loading ore in Australia and she was all of eight years old at the time - followed not long after by the bow dropping off the "Kirki" and the ensuing Ships of Shame saga.
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  #133  
Old 15th April 2010, 11:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billieboy View Post
Someone should supply the magistrates with a bound copy John T. Seems curt and dried to me, but then I'm an engineer!
Plod had better go back aboard and handcuff the Second Mate, if they want to do a really throrough job!

Needless to say I don't see what purpose can possibly be served by criminal proceedings. I can't say "nobody stuffs a ship ashore on purpose" as I have in fact known it done, but nobody on board this ship had any intention of ending up on the Reef.
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  #134  
Old 15th April 2010, 12:01
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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Originally Posted by Billieboy View Post
Someone should supply the magistrates with a bound copy John T. Seems curt and dried to me, but then I'm an engineer!
Looks like the Chief might be in trouble as he may have "distracted" the W.O. when he went to the Bridge to check the engine rev's.
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  #135  
Old 15th April 2010, 12:07
trotterdotpom trotterdotpom is offline  
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One of his numerous identities wouldn't be Octavious would it?
Maybe we should start a new thread: "Where's Billy?"

John T.
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  #136  
Old 15th April 2010, 12:38
John Cassels John Cassels is offline  
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Originally Posted by trotterdotpom View Post
Maybe we should start a new thread: "Where's Billy?"

John T.

As far as I am aware , he has no other identities and does not appear on this
site under an assumed name - as others (I am lead to understand) do.

On the other hand , good idea of yours. I have never been able to find out
what happened to him.
Someone must have barred him - but why ?.
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  #137  
Old 15th April 2010, 12:54
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I had a look in Rightships and yes she is currently showing as a 2 star ship, because of the casualty. Her underlying rating is a 3 star ship and as I see it she has been reduced to 2 star as a result of this incident.

2 star ships do load in Australia. The ship would need to be physically screened by a screener and the history of whatever the reason she is a two star ship would be evaluated. This reason for the reduction to 2 star may be due to an incident or a caualty, a change of owner or manager, age related, a terminal report, a PSC detention or other PSC report, (I think they also include 5 items on the PSC report to the equivalent to a detention (I dont understand that - any PSC in China is 5 items from what I hear).

The Rightship system is OK, but for me the PSC input weighting is too significant. The quality of PSC inspections appears to be deteriorating and therefore the value of the Rightship rating can only be as good as the data input it is using. (hence my pervious posts about PSC etc.)

As underwriters we try to use Rightship but I find it of less use than we had initially hoped. It does not tell us anything that we can't see from having a proper look at the PSC record and lloyds casulty reports.

Rightship is trying to introduce the same sort of vetting criteria, systems and protocols that are usual in the tanker business. Rightship are no where near as sophisticated as the oil majors and the information input is much weaker. On the other hand it does have more transparancy and the dry bulk side of the business needs something like this.

Iain
Iain

Thank you for these helpful and accurate observations.

The way that RightShip is set up is that they take the direct feed from a variety of sources and their system automatically responds to the event; so for example a ship that has 5 stars one morning, but just happens to go aground later in the day and becomes the focus of a Maritime Casualty Report, will automatically trigger the downgrade to 2 Stars regardless of any other factor. It then depends on who and what triggered the report as to whether she remains at this level for 30 days or 12 months.

Your second point is also appreciated; and the idea that 2 Stars = “forbidden to load in Australia” is something the unwary get sucked into believing when they have failed to grasp the point as to what RightShip is. It would be unkind to criticise anyone for jumping to an unwise conclusion, although if they then use that incorrect conclusion to launch an unjustified and rather foolish attack, that is maybe not the best use of the keyboard…

Your assessment of the PSC is most accurate, and when it is combined with an automatic feed, we see situations where quality ships are downgraded for the quite inaccurate reasons, and sadly we also see situations where PSC Inspection unfortunately misses something crucial, and a ship that should possibly be just 1 Star, is allowed to retain her 5 stars without justification, thanks to the unsuitable inspection that concentrated on the wrong aspects at the expense of the right ones…

As you wisely conclude, it may not be perfect but it is a lot better than having nothing to police the sub-standard ships, so we should be duly grateful to those who have made a very worthwhile effort to put in place a workable system; even if the final product is often misunderstood by some folk.


Mark

Last edited by non descript; 15th April 2010 at 13:07.. Reason: spelling correction
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  #138  
Old 15th April 2010, 15:03
Billieboy Billieboy is offline  
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Alistair 131,seems that owners would be relieving themselves into wind, trying to keep three stars, after a two ton oil spill and a grounding, MARPOL and Lloyds casualty list in the same breath, won't improve relations with that particular data base software!
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  #139  
Old 15th April 2010, 15:37
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The usual trick in those circumstances is to "sell" the ship to someone "completely unrelated" and put her under "new" but "experienced" management.

On the other hand you can just invite an inspection.
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  #140  
Old 15th April 2010, 16:16
Iain B Iain B is offline  
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Question.

Could Shen Neng 1. Incident be DELIBERATE. [Insurance Scam maybe] this vessel could well be reaching the end of her economic life built in 1993.

Portway Sydney Australia.
If someone thought that putting a loaded panamax on the Great Barrier Reef was a good idea for an insurance scam, they will be very dissapointed with the results. This will be very costly and very difficult for the owners and managers to deal with.

The ship still has some good earning years ahead of her and even in this market she is not near the end of her economical life.

If you want to scuttle a ship for insurance it would usually be for a H&M claim and the scenario for this sort of 'suspect incident' would be that a ship goes down with all the evidence in deep water. No cargo on board and no chance of a wreck removal or oil removal. Typically as often the best clue is that the officers on board would be ususually senior and experienced compared to most officers on other ships under the same management.

As Napoleon is supposed to have said "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

Iain
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  #141  
Old 15th April 2010, 16:30
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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From what I read of the situation I don't think the grounding was deliberate, however, I would be suprised if she was put back in service bearing mind the damage she will have sustained and her age.
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  #142  
Old 15th April 2010, 16:38
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....As Napoleon is supposed to have said "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

Iain
Very good.
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  #143  
Old 15th April 2010, 16:43
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Someone is doing those sums right now! Depends on the engineroom damage I fancy.

I have known a ship stuffed on a reef for an insurance scam but I was the man charged with finding out what happened - we rumbled it and did not pay. I won't name the owners as they are still in business. They did not think that we would go to the lengths of tracking down their ratings in three continents - the rating's stories all matched. As Iain says, very senior officers on board for that voyage (only) insufficient victualling for the officially intended voyage, salvage tug assistance not sought (when the SMIT ROTTERDAM, no less, passed within view and called up!) and to make assurance doubly sure an engine room fire (shifts the burden of proof, see...)

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  #144  
Old 15th April 2010, 20:13
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Iain

Thank you for these helpful and accurate observations.

The way that RightShip is set up is that they take the direct feed from a variety of sources and their system automatically responds to the event; so for example a ship that has 5 stars one morning, but just happens to go aground later in the day and becomes the focus of a Maritime Casualty Report, will automatically trigger the downgrade to 2 Stars regardless of any other factor. It then depends on who and what triggered the report as to whether she remains at this level for 30 days or 12 months.

Your second point is also appreciated; and the idea that 2 Stars = “forbidden to load in Australia” is something the unwary get sucked into believing when they have failed to grasp the point as to what RightShip is. It would be unkind to criticise anyone for jumping to an unwise conclusion, although if they then use that incorrect conclusion to launch an unjustified and rather foolish attack, that is maybe not the best use of the keyboard…

Your assessment of the PSC is most accurate, and when it is combined with an automatic feed, we see situations where quality ships are downgraded for the quite inaccurate reasons, and sadly we also see situations where PSC Inspection unfortunately misses something crucial, and a ship that should possibly be just 1 Star, is allowed to retain her 5 stars without justification, thanks to the unsuitable inspection that concentrated on the wrong aspects at the expense of the right ones…

As you wisely conclude, it may not be perfect but it is a lot better than having nothing to police the sub-standard ships, so we should be duly grateful to those who have made a very worthwhile effort to put in place a workable system; even if the final product is often misunderstood by some folk.


Mark
Very well said Mark. I was waiting patiently for this.
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  #145  
Old 15th April 2010, 20:43
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Indeed so.

However I would like to put in a word for the MCA's PSC staff whom I have dealt with in the southeast corner of the UK.

We often find ourselves appointed as protecting agents when a Chinese ship belonging to a private owner is detained in Britain (I have seen enough of Tilbury scrap berth for this lifetime! )

I've not yet seen a case where I differed from the MCA surveyor.

Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 15th April 2010 at 23:21..
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  #146  
Old 16th April 2010, 01:50
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Shen Neng 1 Fatigue and Hull Life Span



Most ships have a lifespan of a few decades before there is so much wear that refitting and repair becomes uneconomical. Shen Neng 1 fast approaching the 20 year mark.



All vessels are built with a given fatigue capacity when leaving the shipyard. This fatigue capacity is being reduced from the very first day in operation. Theoretically, this fatigue capacity reduction is evenly distributed over the projected life span of the vessel. along with Maintenance schedules and procedures etc, actual events however might not mirror theory. Peak stress loads during loading, discharging or heavy weather might accelerate the development of fatigue in the hull.



Average dynamic stress levels of 12% will result in a hull life span of 23 years. An increase of average dynamic stress levels to 18% will reduce hull life span to just 8.6 years. Sheng Neng 1 is already very close to the mark. Being just over seventeen years old and on her third owner perhaps like a car of the same age not a good investment to the average person [the engine may still run but the body is not so good].

Portway Sydney Australia.
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  #147  
Old 16th April 2010, 04:43
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Re: Napoleon is supposed to have said "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."


Or "If the choice is between a conspiracy and a cock-up,,,cock-up wins every time"
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  #148  
Old 16th April 2010, 07:57
alastairrussell alastairrussell is offline  
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Dear friends

I disagree with some of the above posts and I am thinking that a few of you might have your heads stuck in the sand. Is it not time to stop defending some of the ‘not so good’ procedures of the past and to start looking ahead into the future to improve the way things are done in the international shipping game. Surely, we all must get behind IMO and the IACS and help them to produce one set of rules, standards and codes for all International Shipping. We owe it to the seafarers.

I do not see any of you being interested in what is in the new IMO code which relates to the loading and discharging of bulk carriers and is supposed to be signed off and come into service next January. I am, and I would like to know if fatigue and working hours gets a mention? Has anyone sighted a copy?

I do also not see any of you being interested in the new IMO PSC inspection and database system that is being introduced at the same time! I am, and I would love to know what is in it.

Iain and Mark

I have read everything I can on RightShip and I see it differently from both of you. I am of the view that this computerised vetting system was introduced in Australia to stop the ‘ships of shame’ and the ban on 15 year old ships being loaded. It would also, stop the ‘iffy’ practise of having a ship blacklist.

The way I read it, Rightship wants to stop a 2 star (unacceptable ships) from being chartered and then sent in ballast to load in Australia. Is it not better that an owner of a 2 star ship improves the ship and gets his extra star before the ship is allowed to be chartered?? I like, computers and good software. I like, AutoCAD design software along with its attached Finite element analysis vetting software. I like it, when a computer with good software vets a ship! I like it even more, when it manages to do this without any human interference or human bias being introduced into the answer!

From Rightships Q and A

Does the system help identify “the bad guys” and the “ships of shame”?

It will show by giving a one or two star rating that a ship is unsuitable for a nominated task. (Reasons could be related, for example, to the ship’s building, age, casualty or terminal/port inspection history, its ownership, management, flag or class society.) We do see vessel casualties, or vessels ‘blacklisted’ by ports, that have earlier been rated as unacceptable by our system, and therefore avoided by our clients.[/I]

We have to realise that some of our Australian mineral loading ports do not have safe anchorages, major repair facilities or detention and lay up berths for the large Bulk carriers. To keep the queues of ships down to a reasonable level we have to turn the ships round quickly. We do not have the time or the facilities to inspect and hand out stars. Surely, surely, the onus has to put back on the shipowner to get his ship in a three star rating situation before it is chartered!!!.

With regards to the Chen Seng1 I remember back in the early 70’s when we loaded our panamax bulk carrier in Port Hedland in 8 hours (two loaders). It was a two team effort one loading the iron ore fines and the other pumping the ballast out. It was not a one man show! Even then, in the engine room we adjusted the change over time of the sea watches when leaving to ensure that the watch keepers got some rest.

Iain, it will be very interesting to see what happens to her. With the engine room now being flooded, it will a long tow up to the nearest economic repair facilities say in Singapore. If the DBs in the ME area are damaged, this could have affected the ME alignment! Go into the ATSB site and look up the grounding of the MV Iron Baron. She was 10 years old and they de-oiled the ship and then towed her out to sea and sunk her in 4000 metres of water with her cargo still onboard. In Australia we call it the ‘Tyranny of Distance’ and with the Chen Neng 1 only being a 3 star ship when she left China I just cannot see how she will not be a write off. Time will tell. Depending on her damage Gladstone harbour authorities may refuse her entry into their port.

Can you tell me where I can obtain any information on the new IMO PSC code along with the new the new database THETIS?


Andrew

Regarding the Parkgate case I am not really interested in the money side of it. It was the information gleamed from the long and drawn out court case that upset the shipping owners and the authorities out here. I am sorry but I the see the lessons learnt from the Parkgate mess as being one of the many reasons that would have prompted a charterer to feel the need for some charter or ship buying checking software or system.

Re The Mineral Diamond, I read the report in the ATSB website so I now have to ask you what did you think happened there? She is definitely another Derbyshire. I have looked at the Mineral Diamond so you can maybe have a wee look at the Iron Baron

I see you were not happy when the AUS police arrived onboard the Shen Neng 1. I say no worries; I promise YU we won’t do a HU on the master or the mate.

Andrew, I think you have more to fear from the new UK Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide ACT 2007. That’s the bad one, that’s the one which could put you in jail! I see it refers to the ‘controlling mind’ and this law was brought in as a result of the ‘Herald of Free Enterprise fiasco’. Maybe you should have your container boats drop off their containers on the continent and you can stay away from UK or if you can’t, try hard not to upset the UK MCA and always say nice things about them! Remember how the masters of the HOFE wrote letters to the management complaining about the loading practices by the shore side staff!


Dear friends

I have to say that this web site is supposed to be an international web site and some of you know my views and feelings about the UK shipping establishment and even the London shipowners. In reporting some of my anti British nostalgic experiences I expect to cop a bit of flack or incoming fire and in some cases I look forward to it. I tell you when my memory lets me down but please realise that everything I say is the truth as I saw it, and that I am actually holding back on telling you the real bad ones.

I try hard to be careful what I say in my posts and in doing so you can see that I do a bit of cutting and pasting and note I always acknowledge where I got it from. I leave it up to a reader of the post to read between the lines if he wishes.

Regards

Alastair

Last edited by alastairrussell; 16th April 2010 at 08:16..
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  #149  
Old 16th April 2010, 09:33
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Originally Posted by alastairrussell View Post
Tonga

Go back to School mate!! Two star bulk carriers are not allowed to load in Australia!!.

So why was she sent down to Gladstone?

Tell me Tonga why has her AIS been switched off before and after she ran aground? She still does not register!

Google earth now registers all the AIS Ships, yachts and boats that have got the gear onboard.

And I thought you were a RO?

Alastair
Alastair

Reading this thread I am quite frankly been appalled by this post of yours. Its rude and its wrong. Tonga is in fact a Master Mariner and I think deserves respect for that and an apology from you. You cant just appear on a Forum and then proceed to be downright rude, whilst getting your facts wrong

Personally I think an apology is in order.


Chris.

Last edited by Santos; 16th April 2010 at 09:37..
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  #150  
Old 16th April 2010, 10:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alastairrussell View Post
Dear friends

I disagree with some of the above posts and I am thinking that a few of you might have your heads stuck in the sand. Is it not time to stop defending some of the ‘not so good’ procedures of the past and to start looking ahead into the future to improve the way things are done in the international shipping game. Surely, we all must get behind IMO and the IACS and help them to produce one set of rules, standards and codes for all International Shipping. We owe it to the seafarers.

....
Regards

Alastair
Alastair has written well in his # 148 and his opening words “We owe it to the seafarers” is wholly correct and anything that serves to ensure the Mariners of today are better looked after than their forebears, is clearly the proper way to proceed.

Without going into a long thesis, as this has already been done, it is good to underline the need to have a genuine system of ship monitoring that actually works in practice. Without being critical of any particular body, the PSC Inspections are a big step in the right direction, as is the Ship Vetting Service from the likes of RightShip, but sadly there is still a mountain to climb. - It is indeed a little unfortunate that Shen Neng 1 decided to climb one that was underwater…

Mark
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