T.I.D.tugs of WW2 - Ships Nostalgia
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T.I.D.tugs of WW2

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  #1  
Old 27th July 2019, 14:15
BillH BillH is offline
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T.I.D.tugs of WW2

If all goes to schedule, my illustrated book on this subject matter should be in print in early September.

A4 of around 110 pages, it details the design concept, pre-fabricated construction methods etc and the careers of all 182 vessels.
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  #2  
Old 28th July 2019, 09:29
david freeman david freeman is offline  
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St Andrews Fish Dock Hull in the 70's ha two TID, that were voith synder propelled. The names for the two tugs escape me?? Memory???
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  #3  
Old 28th July 2019, 11:32
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by david freeman View Post
St Andrews Fish Dock Hull in the 70's ha two TID, that were voith synder propelled. The names for the two tugs escape me?? Memory???
David,
there were five T.I.D.s at Hull owned by St Andrews and Hull Steam Trawlers
TRIUNIE ex TID 28
BERNIE ex TID 86
GILDER ex TID 87
KIERO ex TID 44
and DAGGER ex HILLMAN ex TID 79

All TIDs were steam powered with Compound two cyl. engines.

The Voith tugs came later and I think there were three of them the only names I recall being AURORA and NEPTUNE

United Towing had four ex TIDs - HILLMAN, BOWMAN, YEOMAN and FENMAN (HILLMAN was quickly sold to Pigott in Grimsby but not given a LADY name

Fosters had one - TIDSPUR

Further upstream at Selby BOCM had ARDOL, OCO which was sunk in collision, raised, repaired and renamed SELBY OLYMPIAN

Last edited by BillH; 28th July 2019 at 12:44..
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  #4  
Old 29th July 2019, 08:21
john hardy john hardy is offline  
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as the "chant" tankers were constructed in a similar manner, would you be doing a book on them in the future?
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  #5  
Old 29th July 2019, 08:42
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Is this one of 'em?
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  #6  
Old 29th July 2019, 09:07
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by john hardy View Post
as the "chant" tankers were constructed in a similar manner, would you be doing a book on them in the future?
No John, that would be duplicating already publish work.

Both the Chants and the dry cargo version Fabrics both researched by Rev Andrew Huckett, have recently been published over several editions by the World Ship Society Ltd in their monthly journal MARINE NEWS, Supplement

I had started to compile the vessel details but stopped when I became aware of Andrews work being more advanced
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  #7  
Old 29th July 2019, 09:09
john hardy john hardy is offline  
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thanks bill, I didn't know that.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:11
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by Dickyboy View Post
Is this one of 'em?
No, they are smaller than that. See the link

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/galle...ea-gem/cat/516
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  #9  
Old 29th July 2019, 09:22
alaric alaric is offline  
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Does anyone have information on the TID tugs built by Malta Dockyard in the late 1960s?
Same hull design but powered by a Kelvin diesel and a modern funnel.
3 were delivered to East African Railways and Harbours and used in Dar es Salaam
Originally named TID1, 2 and 3 they were renamed Rufiji, Ruvuma and Ruvu.
Others of the same design were delivered to West Africa I believe.
The design, orders and supervision were provided by the Crown Agents, Millbank acting for the African clients.
Malta Maritime Museum has a very good model, about 1/10th scale. Tucked away in an upstairs store room when I last visited, not on public display.
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Last edited by alaric; 29th July 2019 at 09:45..
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  #10  
Old 29th July 2019, 11:03
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by alaric View Post
Does anyone have information on the TID tugs built by Malta Dockyard in the late 1960s?
Same hull design but powered by a Kelvin diesel and a modern funnel.
3 were delivered to East African Railways and Harbours and used in Dar es Salaam
Originally named TID1, 2 and 3 they were renamed Rufiji, Ruvuma and Ruvu.
Others of the same design were delivered to West Africa I believe.
The design, orders and supervision were provided by the Crown Agents, Millbank acting for the African clients.
Malta Maritime Museum has a very good model, about 1/10th scale. Tucked away in an upstairs store room when I last visited, not on public display.
During my research for the book I was in touch with a retired Marine Superintendent from East African Railways & Harbours Company at the time based in Dar-Es-Salem, (Unfortunately his name mislaid) and he provided me with much the same information as you have. I also have the same image in the book.

“The specification for the tugs was drawn up by Crown Agents. I am not sure if they also provided the design, but from memory the lines were the same as drawings and photos I have seen of the original T.I.D.’s. I believe that West German and Netherlands yards tendered for the job, but the order was awarded to Malta Dockyard. They were built 1967’ish, with Kelvin T8 engines on a T.I.D. hull design with fairly modern funnel, basic unglazed wheelhouse and dealt with the barges at the port. Until 1970 they were known as Malta T.I.D. 1, 2 and 3. During 1970 modifications were carried out, the bulwarks were removed due to extensive damage, leaving just a 75 x 75mm angle toe board and the transom was rounded off each side with a 300mm radius. After modifications T.I.D. 1 became RUFIJI, 2- RUVU and 3- RUVUMA (all Tanzanian rivers). They gave good service during my time in Dar, but I have no knowledge of them post 1973”.

Last edited by BillH; 29th July 2019 at 11:32..
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  #11  
Old 29th July 2019, 11:07
alaric alaric is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillH View Post
During my research for the book I was in touch with a retired Marine Superintendent from East African Railways & Harbours Company ant the time based in Dar-Es-Salem, (Unfortunately his name mislaid) and he provided me with much the same information as you have. I also have the same image in the book.

“The specification for the tugs was drawn up by Crown Agents. I am not sure if they also provided the design, but from memory the lines were the same as drawings and photos I have seen of the original T.I.D.’s. I believe that West German and Netherlands yards tendered for the job, but the order was awarded to Malta Dockyard. They were built 1967’ish, with Kelvin T8 engines on a T.I.D. hull design with fairly modern funnel, basic unglazed wheelhouse and dealt with the barges at the port. Until 1970 they were known as Malta T.I.D. 1, 2 and 3. During 1970 modifications were carried out, the bulwarks were removed due to extensive damage, leaving just a 75 x 75mm angle toe board and the transom was rounded off each side with a 300mm radius. After modifications T.I.D. 1 became RUFIJI, 2- RUVU and 3- RUVUMA (all Tanzanian rivers). They gave good service during my time in Dar, but I have no knowledge of them post 1973”.
Thanks, it is me, Dick Goodey you are quoting.
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  #12  
Old 29th July 2019, 11:31
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by alaric View Post
Thanks, it is me, Dick Goodey you are quoting.
Morning Dick, good to hear from you again. I thought the text looked familiar.

I suffered a PC malfunction a while back and lost a fair bit. Fortunately I had several backups so with a new PC in place it was painstakingly reloaded although some files had to be updated.

Best wishes

Bill

Last edited by BillH; 29th July 2019 at 15:28..
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  #13  
Old 29th July 2019, 11:38
alaric alaric is offline  
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Originally Posted by BillH View Post
Morning Dick, good to hear from you again. I though the text looked familiar.

I suffered a PC malfunction a while back and lost a fair bit. Fortunately I had several backups so with a new PC in place it was painstakingly reloaded although some files had to be updated.

Best wishes

Bill
Looking forward to reading your book Bill. Do you have a definitive definition of TID?
Would like to know what happened to the African TIDs, east and west after 1973.

Last edited by alaric; 29th July 2019 at 11:42..
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  #14  
Old 29th July 2019, 15:33
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by alaric View Post
Looking forward to reading your book Bill. Do you have a definitive definition of TID?
Would like to know what happened to the African TIDs, east and west after 1973.
Extracted from book

Since introduction in 1943, the name T.I.D. has been one of the most debated subjects. Even now, it is often argued as to which derivation of T.I.D. is correct. Below are some, if not all the opinions expressed through time.
1. Tug Invasion Duties
2. Tug Invasion Duty
3. Tug Inshore Defence
4. Tug Inshore Duties
5. Tug Inshore and Dock
6. Tug In Dock
7. Tug Intermediate Design
8. Tug Inland Developed
9. Tug Inland Distribution
10. Temporary Invasion Design.
Although, also referred to as being short for TIDDLER, the most logical choice, based purely on the scope of their recorded employment, appears to be either “Tug Inshore Duties” or “Tug Inshore and Dock”, the latter being the preferred. While T.I.D may be the official class nomenclature they were often referred to as TIDs . Both name formats were used when painted up on the hull and the names quoted for the small number that made their way into Lloyds Register were always referred therein as TID xx rather than T.I.D.
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  #15  
Old 29th July 2019, 21:12
alaric alaric is offline  
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Thanks Bill, I was hoping that your research had finally pinned it down but it seems it remains a matter of opinion.
I favour Tug Inshore Duty, but it is just an opinion.
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  #16  
Old 29th July 2019, 23:17
Somerton Somerton is offline  
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In the 1950/60s the Belfast Harbour Commissioners had 3 harbour tugs 2 Tids the Sir Milne , Somerton and a diesel tug Sir Kenneth . She was built by Charles Hill in Bristol with a H and W engine . I was mate in the Sir Kenneth . Skipper in the Somerton when she was relieving the Sir K . Both the Tids were oil fuel steam tugs . Happy days .
Alex C .
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  #17  
Old 30th July 2019, 07:30
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by Somerton View Post
In the 1950/60s the Belfast Harbour Commissioners had 3 harbour tugs 2 Tids the Sir Milne , Somerton and a diesel tug Sir Kenneth . She was built by Charles Hill in Bristol with a H and W engine . I was mate in the Sir Kenneth . Skipper in the Somerton when she was relieving the Sir K . Both the Tids were oil fuel steam tugs . Happy days .
Alex C .
SOMERTON and SIR MILNE went south and ended their days alongside at Malahide, unfortunately submerged
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  #18  
Old 30th July 2019, 15:20
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Two still alongside in Maldon, Essex, but apparently unused though under restoration.

One named TID 172, the other BRENT.

A friend took photos about June of them there.

martyn
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  #19  
Old 30th July 2019, 16:39
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by loco View Post
Two still alongside in Maldon, Essex, but apparently unused though under restoration.

One named TID 172, the other BRENT.

A friend took photos about June of them there.

martyn
Thanks Martyn,

T.I.D.172 was towed from Mistley after the restoration project ran out of money.
BRENT has been in preserved vessel service but is going through a refurbishment
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  #20  
Old 31st July 2019, 16:23
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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Brent was operated by the P.L.A immediately after the War when my Dad worked for the dredging department of the Authority. He was amazed that she was still in existence so many years later.
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  #21  
Old 31st July 2019, 19:10
BillH BillH is offline
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Originally Posted by Dartskipper View Post
Brent was operated by the P.L.A immediately after the War when my Dad worked for the dredging department of the Authority. He was amazed that she was still in existence so many years later.
Roy this extracted from the book typifies the detail of one of 182 vessel histories

T.I.D. 159 c/s GCML
O.N. 181130. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by John Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by John G. Kincaid and Co. Ltd.,
Greenock. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 8.5 knots.
05.11.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1368) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 286) for the
Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
09.04.1946: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.10 of 1946.
12.04.1946: Completed for the Ministry of Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle,Hull, manager at the Ministry). Placed in lay-up under care and maintenance of Townsend Bros. (Ferries) Ltd.,London.
xx.091946: Sold to the Port of London Authority.,London.
17.10.1946: Registered in London, vessel No.378 of 1946.
28.02.1947: Registered as BRENT.
xx.07.1970:Sold to the Stour Salvage Co. Ltd., Mistley, for demolition.
01.06.1971: Sold to Ron and Janet Hall, Maldon, for preservation.
20.06.1971: Berthed at Hythe, Maldon. Regularly in steam on the East Coast and further afield.
xx.08.1994: Placed in lay-up due to boiler concerns.
xx.10.2002: Dry-docked at Maldon. Bottom overplated and hull partially re-plated.
21.12.2010: The Steam Tug Brent Trust formed.
10.07.2011: Vessel placed in the ownership of the Trust.
2019: Still in existence. Restoration in progress
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Old 31st July 2019, 19:51
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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Thanks for the comprehensive history, Bill. I saw her at Maldon a few years ago. She deserves to be conserved.

Regards,
Roy.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:53
russellward russellward is offline  
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NZ's Equivalent

A consortium of NZ boatbuilders with limited experience in steel built around 20 YTLs for the US Army for service in the Pacific during WW2. The first few were built in Australia and deemed unsafe but with some tweaks to the lines done by the RNZN Dockyard, they proved to be very capable tugs. I think the hull shape was quite aesthetic. With 14 tons of direct reversing 6 cyl Atlas Imperial and huge fuel tanks down low, they had a massive righting moment and were certainly uncomfortable in a steep sea (aren't most tugs?). The NZ Navy took three uncompleted ships post war and finished them off. One became a dockyard tug, one a diving tender and one was based in Westport. Fine ships and about the only time I've had a yodel at the leward rail at sea was on the dockyard one Arataki. But only the one time....
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  #24  
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:39
Stephen Carter Stephen Carter is offline  
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TIDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillH View Post
SOMERTON and SIR MILNE went south and ended their days alongside at Malahide, unfortunately submerged
Bill, not quite, I remember once in the mid 1980s when I was in Drogheda in the TID Salisbury, I travelled on the train down to Malahide to view the Sir Milne and Somerton derelict on the beach. Some years later in 1994, again in the Salisbury, I was in a little port just on the north side of Clogher Head called Port Oriel, and there was either the Sir Milne or Somerton. She had been bought and the new owners had tried to motorise her by fitting a lorry engine and gearbox into the after accommodation with a v belt drive to the propshaft which had been disconnected from the steam engine by removing the propshaft bolts. I doubt it was successful as there was no thrust bearing and I have a feeling she was broken up at Port Oriel. I cannot now remember which of the pair this was. Both Sir Milne and Somerton when at Malahide where owned by Jack Martin and Freddy Oldham, the same people I bought the Salisbury from. Stephen
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Old 2nd August 2019, 13:38
BillH BillH is offline
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Hi Stephen,

That was SIR MILNE

I based my submerged statement on a set of photographs shown to me some time ago by the late Chris Trumann of bot vessels sunk alongside at Malahide.

The full details below

T.I.D. 152 c/s GCBX
O.N. 180165. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by J. Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by John G Kincaid and Co. Ltd., Greenock. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 36.4nhp. 8½ knots.
Post 1972: Unspecified type diesel.
12.07.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1361) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 279) for the Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
07.09.1945: Builders Certificate issued.
08.09.1945: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.17 of 1945.
17.09.1945: Completed. Allocated to the South East Asia Command, (T. Phelan and Co. Ltd, Liverpool, appointed as lay-up managers).
20.03.1946: Owners restyled as the Ministry of Transport, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
10.07.1946: Sold to the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, Belfast.
20.11.1946: Arrived at Albert Quay, Belfast, under tow of DUCHESS OF ABERCORN (309g./37), from Liverpool.
16.01.1947: Registered at Belfast as SIR MILNE, vessel No.1 of 1947.
29.01.1947: Moved as T.I.D. 152, from Clarendon Dock into No.2 Graving Dock.
10.02.1947: Returned to Clarendon Dock as SIR MILNE.
1972: Sold to C.J. Martin, for demolition at Malahide, Eire . Owner however, cut propeller shaft just astern of the steam engine and fitted a large lorry engine and gearbox in the after accommodation.
1984: Owner bankrupt. Lying at Malahide, Eire.
199x: Whilst attempting passage from Malahide to Bangor, in gale force winds, was blown ashore at Port Oriel, Eire.
05.08.1995: Seen derelict and partially demolished at Port Oriel.
01.03.2005: Pieces of the stern and boiler seen on the beach at Port Oriel, Co. Louth.

T.I.D. 156 c/s GCKY
O.N. 180175. 54g. 0n. 65.0 x 17.0 x 7.4 feet.
C.2-cyl. (12½” and 26” x 18”) by John Dickinson and Sons Ltd., Sunderland. Boiler by Alexander Anderson and Co, Motherwell. Oil fuel. 220 IHP. 8½ knots.
08.09.1945: (Ministry Job No. A/MS/1365) launched by Wm. Pickersgill and Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 283) for the Ministry of War Transport, London, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
06.11.1945: Registered at Sunderland, vessel No.27 of 1945.
08.11.1945: Completed.
10.11.1945: Placed in lay-up, under care and maintenance of J. Phelan and Co. Ltd., Liverpool.
20.03.1946: Owners restyled as the Ministry of Transport, (Stanley Lancelot Tottle, Hull, manager at the Ministry).
10.07.1946: Sold to the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, Belfast.
12.07.1946: Arrived at Albert Quay, Belfast, towed by DUCHESS OF ABERCORN (309g./37), from Liverpool.
19.08.1946: Moved as T.I.D. 156, from Clarendon Dock into No.1 Graving Dock.
21.08.1946: Registered at Belfast, as SOMERTON, vessel No.15 of 1946.
18.09.1946: Returned to Clarendon Dock.
1972: Sold to C.J. Martin, for demolition at Malahide, Eire. (may be J. C. Martin)
1984: Owner bankrupt. Lying at Malahide, Eire.
pre 1994: Owner deceased and vessel in charge of a keeper. No ropes available for mooring so keeper burnt holes in the bottom and she became tidal.
04.12.2004: Seen lying sunk at Malahide.
06.2005: Wreck reported as having been raised and demolished at Howth.
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