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Captain, Master, Owner?

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  #1  
Old 23rd April 2009, 10:49
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CEYLON220 CEYLON220 is offline  
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Captain, Master, Owner?

I`ve come across this description on a few occasionas where ships Captains in both the MN and RFAs have signed themselves off as Master,Skipper or Owner, yet in the Senior Service(had to slip that one in!!) the Lt, Lt.Commander up to a four ring Captain who are in charge of a Naval Base, ship/submarine are all classes as Captains, then why does a MN four ringer not sign himself as Captain when he has earned the title?
Must add this to the reference of RN Lt, Lt Cmd before someone pulls me up, they are addressed by their rank ie:Lt or Commander by other senior ranks.


Dave.
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  #2  
Old 23rd April 2009, 11:08
Steve Woodward Steve Woodward is offline  
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I'm sure some do Dave - and some keep it to themselves, depends on the ego maybe ?
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  #3  
Old 23rd April 2009, 11:32
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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As seen on another Forum where member's (quite rightly and proudly I might add) have shown their "M.N. Tickets" they are down as Master Mariner's, hence the term Ship's Master. The term Master Mariner sounds (to me anyway) much more impressive. In my time in the M.N. I can't ever remember calling the Master a Captain it was either Master , Skipper or the "Old Man". The R.N. is as you know is a different kettle of fish when it comes the Command structure and actual Rank.
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  #4  
Old 23rd April 2009, 12:17
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Most of us here would far rather refer to ourselves as retired or ex or current ship's masters.
Don't know why but I have never used the title "Captain" even though some do.
I am proud to be a Master Mariner (lapsed).
I am also proud to be a certified Able Seaman.
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  #5  
Old 23rd April 2009, 20:03
Peter4447 Peter4447 is offline  
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I was reading recently that the titles Captain and Master began life with two separate people. It appears that back in the middle ages ships were built with castles fore and aft. In peacetime the ships traded as merchant vessels but in time of war soldiers were embarked who fought the vessels from the castles. The man responsible for the soldiers was the Captain and the man responsible for the ship and its navigation was the Master. Over the years the titles became merged.
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  #6  
Old 23rd April 2009, 20:38
Lancastrian Lancastrian is offline  
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Your reference to Owner probably refers to the current practice in the RFA where not only the Commanding Officer but all senior officers and CPOs are appointed for several years being relieved for periods of leave before returning. So they are known as the Owner CO, CEO, CPO Cook etc of that ship. As opposed to the previous practice, common in the MN, of a whole new crew every few months which was not good for continuity. There is a difference between a Rank and an appointment title. In the RFA, Captain Bloggs was The Master until the system was changed by a Defence Council Instruction in 1992. At the same time, Mr Smith, The Chief Engineer Officer, became Captain (E) Smith, and every ship has at least two Chief Officers. (Executive, Marine Engineering, Supply, Systems Engineering). The last two may be First or Second Officers on smaller ships.
I only use my rank when writing to bank managers!

Last edited by Lancastrian; 23rd April 2009 at 21:11.. Reason: Getting it right. Its confusing even for those who were in it!
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  #7  
Old 23rd April 2009, 20:48
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Lancastrian,
We had much the same system in BP where the Senior Officers were attached to a ship 'back to back' for a period of circa 2 years before moving on.
In my present outfit we have in practice the same system, however that's down to our seatime/leave ratio being 1:1 as opposed to company intention. However it does make life a lot easier with regards to continuity, more so if both yourself and your back to back are 'singing from the same hymn sheet', not to mention it makes the life of an Appointer simpler!
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  #8  
Old 23rd April 2009, 21:16
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Our master explorer, the man most responsible for the colonisation of Australia and New Zealand, Captain James Cook, was a Lieutenant at the time.

Bob
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  #9  
Old 23rd April 2009, 21:20
Lancastrian Lancastrian is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Our master explorer, the man most responsible for the colonisation of Australia and New Zealand, Captain James Cook, was a Lieutenant at the time.

Bob
As was the much maligned Captain Bligh of the Bounty.
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  #10  
Old 24th April 2009, 00:35
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CEYLON220 CEYLON220 is offline  
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Right lads I`m not finished with you yet, when a Master, Skipper,Captain obtains his certificate no doubt he will be judged on his experience of ship handling,navigation,and seamanships before the board grants him the said certificate, does this mean that he can skipper a ship of any size or is it like the truckers certificate ie: class 3 for 4 wheelers, class 2 for 6 & 8 wheelers and class 1 for the larger articulated vehicles---(not being too technical here am I!!!!!!) or does the certificate stand for all classes of ships. I think that I would prefer the title of Skipper, more friendly like.

Dave
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  #11  
Old 24th April 2009, 07:43
Lancastrian Lancastrian is offline  
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Skippers are for yachts, submarines, fishing boats and tugs!
The Master Mariner's Certificate used to be issued as either Home Trade or Foreign Going and then endorsements for dangerous cargoes were brought in together with revalidation for "continued proficiency". The size of ship was not limited for FG. I'm not sure about HT.
They are now governed by international standards called STCW about which someone else will have to answer.

Last edited by Lancastrian; 24th April 2009 at 08:02.. Reason: grammar
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  #12  
Old 24th April 2009, 07:50
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEYLON220 View Post
Right lads I`m not finished with you yet, when a Master, Skipper,Captain obtains his certificate no doubt he will be judged on his experience of ship handling,navigation,and seamanships before the board grants him the said certificate, does this mean that he can skipper a ship of any size or is it like the truckers certificate ie: class 3 for 4 wheelers, class 2 for 6 & 8 wheelers and class 1 for the larger articulated vehicles---(not being too technical here am I!!!!!!) or does the certificate stand for all classes of ships. I think that I would prefer the title of Skipper, more friendly like.

Dave
The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!
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  #13  
Old 24th April 2009, 08:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!
A little harsh I feel.

A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe. Experience comes with time. A ship owner will generally not appoint someone as master for many years after the gaining of the certificate.

In my own experience my Master's ticket got me up to Senior Second Officer on passenger ships. Thereafter it was "dead man's shoes" as you waited for advancement. In that time experience was gained.
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  #14  
Old 24th April 2009, 09:23
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Harsh? I don't think so.
As for your own post. I have said on many occasions that I feel genuine sympathy for people like yourself who had a dream and believed in the company you served with only to have your aspirations dashed.


Bill
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  #15  
Old 24th April 2009, 10:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!
I agree with Chris here Bill , I think your remark was harsh, I was only putting a bit of light humour into the subject but apparently some of us cannot take a joke , must be more careful in future, RN Captains who obtain their 4th ring can command any size of ship depending on their seniority, Lts, Lt.Cdr usually take command of the smaller class ie Frigates,Destroyers and Submarines so that is why I tried making a point with HGV classes(Heavy Goods Vehicles), by the way, I was only a humble Chief Petty Officer when serving 20 years in the RN and was only interested in how the other half functioned, I was`nt intending to start WW3 between shipmates on this site, as I`ve said before "Life is too short,enjoy what is left of it".

Regards,
Dave
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  #16  
Old 24th April 2009, 10:16
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CEYLON220 CEYLON220 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Isaac View Post
A little harsh I feel.

A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe. Experience comes with time. A ship owner will generally not appoint someone as master for many years after the gaining of the certificate.

In my own experience my Master's ticket got me up to Senior Second Officer on passenger ships. Thereafter it was "dead man's shoes" as you waited for advancement. In that time experience was gained.
Thanks Chris, I think you have answered my question,I thought once you had the certificate you were in a position to command any size of ship but it seems like you keep on learning the job before companies think that you have the ability to take over one of their ships, must be hard having to take a 2nd officers job when you know you have the capabilities to take command of the ship,but thats life I suppose in most jobs.

Dave.
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  #17  
Old 24th April 2009, 10:30
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEYLON220 View Post
I agree with Chris here Bill , I think your remark was harsh, I was only putting a bit of light humour into the subject but apparently some of us cannot take a joke , must be more careful in future, RN Captains who obtain their 4th ring can command any size of ship depending on their seniority, Lts, Lt.Cdr usually take command of the smaller class ie Frigates,Destroyers and Submarines so that is why I tried making a point with HGV classes(Heavy Goods Vehicles), by the way, I was only a humble Chief Petty Officer when serving 20 years in the RN and was only interested in how the other half functioned, I was`nt intending to start WW3 between shipmates on this site, as I`ve said before "Life is too short,enjoy what is left of it".

Regards,
Dave
Dave,

Nothing to do taking a joke. I think your post was riddled with inaccuracies and therefore I did not take it seriously. If I would have known you were RN, then I would have made allowances.

Brgds

Bill
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  #18  
Old 24th April 2009, 11:10
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Captain, Master ,Owner?

In late 80's a frequent visitor to Tranmere Oil Terminal (Shell) were two Helsinki registered tankers. They were elderly vessels, but immaculately maintained and presented. One was called PEGGY and the other BONNY. They were part (some say 90%) owned by the Master who alternated his command between the two. His wife was also a part owner and also commanded either.

There was no class distinction there - one would be hard pressed to identify the old man (or lady) and each set about a multitude of tasks without a second thought. I do recall seeing the "old lady" on the bridge mop in hand and a bundle of rags for the brass.

What was I doing? We had just finished renewing the d/c hose on a adjacent topped boom - not a job for the faint hearted - and could observe all the activity on board.

BW

J

Last edited by jmcg; 24th April 2009 at 13:23.. Reason: typo
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  #19  
Old 24th April 2009, 11:35
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Originally Posted by Chris Isaac View Post
A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe.
When I was issued with a FG Master's Certificate I could take the Queen Mary to Timbuctoo but I couldn't take a British registered fishing vessel beyond the pier heads. Not possessing a fishing ticket I was unqualified.

Last edited by K urgess; 24th April 2009 at 12:00.. Reason: Quote fixed
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  #20  
Old 24th April 2009, 12:08
K urgess K urgess is offline
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Gents, when you quote part of another member's post don't forget to keep the [/quote] on the tail end of the quote or there's no demarcation between yours and theirs except for italics.
Same goes at the beginning. Make sure all the square brackets are present but at the beginning the / shouldn't be there.

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  #21  
Old 24th April 2009, 13:27
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Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
Dave,

Nothing to do taking a joke. I think your post was riddled with inaccuracies and therefore I did not take it seriously. If I would have known you were RN, then I would have made allowances.

Brgds

Bill
It matters not what megalithic omnipotence one thinks ones seniority or rank allows, there is no earthly reason for such ignorant arrogance in answer to a reasonable question. I hope the RN members will make allowances and realise that you do not represent the manners and courtesy of all MN members of whatever ranking.
Regards
Bob
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  #22  
Old 24th April 2009, 13:35
K urgess K urgess is offline
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Let's have no arguments please, Gents.
This isn't stormy weather.
Heated discussion without entering into personal remarks is all that is allowed.
This is not directed to anyone in particular but to ALL participants in this thread.
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  #23  
Old 24th April 2009, 14:09
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcg View Post
Captain, Master ,Owner?

In late 80's a frequent visitor to Tranmere Oil Terminal (Shell) were two Helsinki registered tankers. They were elderly vessels, but immaculately maintained and presented. One was called PEGGY and the other BONNY. They were part (some say 90%) owned by the Master who alternated his command between the two. His wife was also a part owner and also commanded either.

There was no class distinction there - one would be hard pressed to identify the old man (or lady) and each set about a multitude of tasks without a second thought. I do recall seeing the "old lady" on the bridge mop in hand and a bundle of rags for the brass.

What was I doing? We had just finished renewing the d/c hose on a adjacent topped boom - not a job for the faint hearted - and could observe all the activity on board.

BW

J
My first meeting I had with Dan Ludwig was on one of the Bulk Class. Being an early riser, he busied himself cleaning off the work tops in the mess prior to the morning meeting.

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  #24  
Old 24th April 2009, 14:17
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A leader by example no doubt.

BW

J
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  #25  
Old 24th April 2009, 15:51
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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John,

I have always felt privileged to have sailed for him.

Thanks & Brgds

Bill
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