What a mess , or....... - Ships Nostalgia
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What a mess , or.......

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  #1  
Old 26th April 2019, 09:37
grootondermarszeil grootondermarszeil is offline  
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What a mess , or.......

Here a picture of the wooden barque ELLIDE ???? Probably Scandinavian. Is this the moment that the upper-rigging was send down, to pass a bridge?
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  #2  
Old 26th April 2019, 16:11
stein stein is offline  
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I will suggest that the lower masts has in this way been strengthened, because she is about to be keelhauled, that is hauled down on her side with chains fastened in her rigging, going through heavy blocks at the quaiside and from there to capstans further inland. This so as to make half her hull free for caulking, tarring and re-coppering. The ship behind her has been given the same treatment, I note.
Could perhaps be this one; Barque Ellida of Larvik, Built 1848, lost 1905. https://digitaltmuseum.no/0210255597.../media?slide=0

Last edited by stein; 26th April 2019 at 17:01..
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  #3  
Old 26th April 2019, 18:23
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Robert Hilton Robert Hilton is offline  
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#2 The term is "Careening," or "Heaving Down," if you are American. I have only heard of keel hauling as a cruel punishment that could kill you. I have never heard it used for careening. Any comments?
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Old 26th April 2019, 20:52
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Careening was the term used in NZ for heeling the hull over as the tide falls in order to clean, caulk or repair the planking . There is a large expanse of tidal shallows in Ngataringa Bay opposite the berthage and anchorage in Auckland harbour where the square riggers used to careen before the availability of dry docks and many an old photograph or painting shows the vessels laying over at drunken angles .
My son was a keen nautical historian and relic collector as as a boy he pursuaded me to take him into that Bay on my Bilge keeler so that he could wallow about in the mud looking for memorabilia such as whole and broken clay pipes , scraps of copper sheathing and the like . It was suprising what he found over his years of fossicking ..

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Old 26th April 2019, 21:16
stein stein is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Hilton View Post
#2 The term is "Careening," or "Heaving Down," if you are American. I have only heard of keel hauling as a cruel punishment that could kill you. I have never heard it used for careening. Any comments?
You are of course right, for the British Isles as well as for North America. I guess I sometimes translate my native language into English a bit too fast. Careening in Norwegian is "kj°lhaling", directly translated it becomes "keelhauling", as does the German "Kielholen." Falconer's dictionary of 1815 defines keelhauling as a punishment inflicted for various offences in the Dutch navy, and "executed with a serenity of temper peculiar to the Dutch." The unfortunate culprit was hauled around the ship's keel.
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Old 27th April 2019, 08:27
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#5 Thank you Stein. Educational as ever. I find the Dutch execution of a harsh punishment with a serenity of temper quite fascinating.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 14:47
grootondermarszeil grootondermarszeil is offline  
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I can agree that ELLIDA is ready for careening. But the ELLIDA is docked at a trade quay, and not at a shipyard. , see, among other things, the goods on the quay and the men's clothing. Moreover, the ship is loaded. This photo was probably taken just before 1900. Was careening still common at that time? Usually the tide and sandbanks were used. Stein I found 4 ships named ELLIDA, including 1 Norwegian, stranded in June 1888 Danger Point S Africa
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Old 3rd May 2019, 17:45
stein stein is offline  
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One might use a heavily loaded barge to drag her down towards, as here in the photo illustrating the operation in a wikipedia entry. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielho..._W_Bateman.jpg
The cost of dry-docking would probably be prohibitive for those operating wooden ships in the twentieth century. The Ellida pictured in a link above, and in another painting here: https://digitaltmuseum.org/021176792483/ellida-1848 was lost off Londonderry in 1905. She was then old and probably quite leaky, needing a quick fix every now and then. One method often used in Norway with leaking wooden ships was to throw an ant heap over the side where the ship was leaking the most, the pine needles from the ant heap being sucked into the cracks. The Norwegian name for this was "mauring", from the Norwegian name for ants: "maur". Pine needles being a bit scarce outside Scandinavia and Canada, this practise might be unknown elsewhere. Or has anyone got an English word for this?

Last edited by stein; 3rd May 2019 at 18:31..
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Old 3rd May 2019, 18:31
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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[QUOTE=stein;2981145]You are of course right, for the British Isles as well as for North America. I guess I sometimes translate my native language into English a bit too fast. QUOTE]

I think we are all guilty at times of using the incorrect terminology whether the English language is our native tongue or not.

How many times have we started a posting knowing full well what we want to say and halfway through we forget the word we knew when we started, it's a privilege of old age!
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Old 3rd May 2019, 18:41
stein stein is offline  
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Yes, I am at this senior moment unable to remember the English verb for stopping a leak, which I needed for my last posting above. There is a Harry Belafonte song where, in a dialogue with a woman, he is trying to evade work, including the repair of a leaking bucket - but even remembering that does not help me. "With what shall I ???? it, dear woman dear woman? Well, maybe there is no such word as the Norwegian "tette" in English, as they did not need it as much as we once did. The windmill pump that once pumped continuously on half of our fleet, and was known mockingly as "Norway's second national flag" indicated a particular need of the verb.
I have heard that there are 16 Norwegian words that can only be translated into English as "rock", as rocks is something we Norwegians have to deal with with quite more often than the British.

Last edited by stein; 3rd May 2019 at 19:18..
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Old 3rd May 2019, 19:41
Bill.B Bill.B is offline  
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Try caulking Stein. Or as on wooden sailing barges “ Blackwall caulking”. They found a nice thick patch of mud in the Thames and let her sit in it for a tide. Of course being flat bottomed after a pounding it had to be redone. Sometimes the vessel didn’t rise with the tide so it was know to climb to the main mast head with a maul and give the top cap a hammering.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 22:36
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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[QUOTE=stein;2982265]he is trying to evade work, including the repair of a leaking bucket - but even remembering that does not help me. "With what shall I ???? it, dear woman dear woman?

The original as far as I can recall as a kid was 'there's a hole in my bucket, dear Lisa, Dear Lisa, there's a hole in my bucket etc etc'

Funnily enough I was singing that at a kids birthday party last weekend, and yep the little girl's name was Lisa
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Old 3rd May 2019, 23:26
stein stein is offline  
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I found the German text to that song, and the verb "zustopfen", translating as "plug", this word having as synonyms: stop (up), seal (up/off), close (up/off), cork, stopper, bung, block (up/off), dam (up), fill (up), pack, stuff; stopple. And so I conclude that there likely is no English verb for the general activity of making something inpenetrable by unwanted air, water, or whatever. The nearest word probably being "close (up)". Btw., Belafonte sings "With what shall I fix it?"

The Germans have the word "dicht" as non-leaking, ("dicht machen" for "stopping a leak" in general) which probably is the origin of the Norwegian verb "dikke" which is the act of hammering with a special hammer on the inner side of the edge of overlapping plating on a riveted ship's hull - so as to close any gap. What may be the English word for this means of combatting leaks?

Last edited by stein; 4th May 2019 at 04:37..
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Old 4th May 2019, 06:04
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Stein, those words take me back to early childhood when many NZ Laundry tubs were made of native Kauri timber , a wood that was most widely used by shipwrights for ship construction . The trees were huge and enabled planks of very wide widths , thickness and length to suit a job but when it got down to domestic use and economy the tub Bottom and side planks were often butted together and caulked as you would a ship's planking.
These tubs usually had water in the bottom to keep the timber swelled and tight but when the leakage became too frequent my mother would ask Dad to "Stop the Tub". Never plug it or caulk it but the action was the same.
Our company used to be NZ agents for Germany's Max Weishaupt industrial burners and Ari pipeline valves and the German word options for flow regulation seemed to be endless , some of your quotes ring a bell , but in the end we purchased copies of English /German and German / English Technical dictionaries to avoid misunderstanding about the multitude of words that mean much the same thing within limits. Stop,Stem,plug, block, caulk, close, clamp, dam, stuff, pack, cork and bung , same objective but many different meanings in the trade.

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Old 4th May 2019, 08:02
stein stein is offline  
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The plain English word I was looking for is probably "tight". Obviously a word with the same origin as the German "dicht", and Norwegian "tett." "I have tarred her inside and outside - my boat is now tight." Is that not correct English? And can you say "tighten" within the context? The stumbling block being the knowledge that this word, in addition to "not leaky", may also mean not loose, not slack, close fitting, narrow, stingy and a few other things. The Norwegian and German words mentioned having a much narrower meaning, although both also means close by.

I hope Grootondermarszeil will excuse the linguistic excursion; we may get back to the careening or not careening matter later on. I will admit the combined contents of the picture does not provide us with an immediate explanation of what is going on.

Last edited by stein; 4th May 2019 at 08:12..
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