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Recruiting and retaining women seafarers

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  #26  
Old 24th June 2009, 23:44
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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I also called little guys, wimpy, but I do not hear any of them complaining about my post.

I usually find when I get called names on this site it is alot stronger than "Jackass" so I thank you for that, however I still go with what I wrote.

I was pretty fit and strong and could stay up for days only stopping for cat naps of a few minutes during the night and I could never see a women of the kind that I would be interested in being able to do the physical work along with the heat and dirt and then the strength you needed to do the actual work.

Now go and read my post again, I said in that post and again above that the women I would like to see on a ship etc and also wimpy little guys could not keep up with the work either. In my repair team I could only afford to have guys like myself that got the job done.

No doubt there are wimpy little guys and women out there who are more than capable of doing the less physical work or sitting in control rooms which we were also able to do but all around I do not think women could do our jobs then or now.

oh and by the way, I promoted a girl last year to be a technical director in one of the companies I am involved in and she also calls me a jackass or alot worse on a regular basis.

SM, the stuff is easy to come by if you look around, some of the best was about half way between ayrshire and arran and about 600 foot down
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  #27  
Old 25th June 2009, 00:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benjidog View Post
Judging by some of the recent comments on this thread, some of you guys would presumably have sympathy with the views of the Taleban.
I could understand it, to an extent, from people who have been retired for some time, but those of you still at sea ....... are you living in a different century to the rest of us or just misogynists?
The word "dinosaur" comes to mind for some reason. Sadly this kind of view exists in other spheres of life as well.
Brian,
The reason for the opposition of many has nothing to do with either opposing equal rights or technical competence, it's the emotional problems it brings. When I say emotional problems, they're caused just as much by one sex as the other and it affects the job in hand.
In the Royal Navy, female sailors are banned from serving on RN submarines for the exact same reason.
Conditions on your average merchant ship today are not that much different from life onboard a submarine - long periods of isolation away from home, no shore leave, a close knit crew working in a historically masculine job and very limited contact with the outside world.
There's no point in getting too specific as individuals will only get upset.
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Last edited by James_C; 25th June 2009 at 00:47..
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  #28  
Old 25th June 2009, 01:11
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I have sailed with a lot of females. For the most part they did there jobs that were required of them. At least on American Ships brawn is not required. The Health and Welfare people would be wondering why the team lift posters were not up or the rule not being enforced. Along with the required rest periods. The normal onboard time is four to six months with vacations being any where from 15 per 30 to day for day.

The one exception was a female wiper that did not want to help with the connection of the potable water hose because it was raining outside. One of the people at the gangway asked her if she was the wicked witch of the North and was afraid of melting if she got wet. The four sets of Raingear was hanging up by the gangway. The incident took four hours of investigation and paper work to resolve the mess.

Joe
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  #29  
Old 25th June 2009, 02:52
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Originally Posted by MARINEJOCKY View Post

oh and by the way, I promoted a girl last year to be a technical director in one of the companies I am involved in and she also calls me a jackass or alot worse on a regular basis.
Is that right..how generous. I happen to be Technical Superintedent in my Company.
I despise sexist comments from anyone and having some individual referring to hard working woman as dykes is beyond. I don't give a rats ass about wimpy guys, because I know damn well there is not one man out there who remotely considers themself wimpy.
As for length of time, I merely worked 120 days in the Arctic. Moderate time in the scheme of things I am sure.
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Last edited by JoK; 25th June 2009 at 03:01.. Reason: typing on a notebook
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  #30  
Old 25th June 2009, 11:49
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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I did not excuse "wimpy" guys and un-like alot of other guys out there if a woman could not do the job exactly the same as us why should I make an excuse for her.

I am all for team work and there was no way I could get the work done without the various teams I worked with however if I had to stop what I was doing to go and lift something or do something that I had asked a women to do and that I knew a man could do, that person whether it be a women or a wimpy guy would be off the team.

Would we have to make further excuses for a few days every month and try being pregnant and working in "the artic" or 120 degree temp's. Which company are going to risk sending a woman away on a 5 month trip if she was 2 or 3 months pregnant.

What about women who spent years learning how to shop and do their nails & hair and then all of a sudden there is none of that. I think the majority of girls would find it very hard to leave their comfort zone of having girls around them and although the romance of going off to sea may sound good I think once they get out there the reality sets in and they go ashore.
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  #31  
Old 25th June 2009, 17:23
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Satanic Mechanic Satanic Mechanic is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benjidog View Post
Judging by some of the recent comments on this thread, some of you guys would presumably have sympathy with the views of the Taleban.

I could understand it, to an extent, from people who have been retired for some time, but those of you still at sea ....... are you living in a different century to the rest of us or just misogynists?

The word "dinosaur" comes to mind for some reason. Sadly this kind of view exists in other spheres of life as well.
Jim pretty much answered this but the sad truth is if you put one female on a vessel with 20 men for 5 months without a break - somewhere along the line there will be trouble even if the lassie has behaved herself impecably and if she hasn't then it can be open warfare - I'm serious, I have seen knives and broken bottles used because of this!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong I would never ban them or anything and if they are on board then I get on with it but by preference and for a quiet life I am happier with an all male compliment. I would imagine things would be very different on a large compliment vessel with frequent port calls but for a VLCC or similar it is not an uncommon point of view.
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  #32  
Old 25th June 2009, 18:25
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Originally Posted by Satanic Mechanic View Post
Jim pretty much answered this but the sad truth is if you put one female on a vessel with 20 men for 5 months without a break - somewhere along the line there will be trouble even if the lassie has behaved herself impecably and if she hasn't then it can be open warfare - I'm serious, I have seen knives and broken bottles used because of this!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong I would never ban them or anything and if they are on board then I get on with it but by preference and for a quiet life I am happier with an all male compliment. I would imagine things would be very different on a large compliment vessel with frequent port calls but for a VLCC or similar it is not an uncommon point of view.
Very much confirms my suspicions raised in my previous on this thread
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  #33  
Old 25th June 2009, 19:12
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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I went to join one ship and was told I had to go to the London Office before flying out. This was unusual as I was a 2/E and the only ones "invited" to the office at that time were captains & C/E's.

Once there I got this big lecture about joining a ship that had a female 3/O onboard and the company expected me to behave.

Once onboard the ship I met Allision for the second time, she had been a cadet on a ship I did a coastal trip on, and just about the first thing that she told me was the harrassment she was getting from all of the married guys on board.

I hope I helped her as we hung out together all of the time and everybody thought we were an item so the married guys backed off. I was even warned by the old man but we were just good friends.

It was quite funny at first as I would go to the bridge using the outside stairway and would come up to see at least one guy on each bridge wing and another inside. Allison saw the funny side as well and we would stand up close together just to p1ss the others off.

She did a great job but that was as a 3/0 and although the hours may have been extensive at times the physical work was not that hard and she often commented on how she could never work down below.

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  #34  
Old 25th June 2009, 21:54
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Originally Posted by Satanic Mechanic View Post
Jim pretty much answered this but the sad truth is if you put one female on a vessel with 20 men for 5 months without a break - somewhere along the line there will be trouble even if the lassie has behaved herself impecably and if she hasn't then it can be open warfare - I'm serious, I have seen knives and broken bottles used because of this!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong I would never ban them or anything and if they are on board then I get on with it but by preference and for a quiet life I am happier with an all male compliment. I would imagine things would be very different on a large compliment vessel with frequent port calls but for a VLCC or similar it is not an uncommon point of view.
Yeah, I guess 110 men on a ship without a port of call for 4-5 months is a little different.
But then again we had a little thing called DISCIPLINE.
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  #35  
Old 25th June 2009, 22:13
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Satanic Mechanic Satanic Mechanic is offline  
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As opposed to Human Nature and yes you are correct 110 men is significantly different.

Look JoK some do it and carry it off and well done to them but some don't. If you were to give me a preference I would prefer an all male ship but that does not mean I would not sail with or not allow females to work on the ship - they are more than welcome but as a personal preference based on experience I prefer sailing without them. No offense intended and no prejudices offered.
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  #36  
Old 25th June 2009, 22:52
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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SM, you are going soft, Females would be more than welcome in any job on a ship except in the engine room. Now some ferries, research vessels and cruise ships you could, get away with having women or wimpy guys down below but on a real ship you need some muscle down there.

110 men on a ship, sounds like alot of tree huggers floating around looking for a Japanese whaler or two. If we had that many on the gas boats I would say bring as many women onboard as possible so I would have something to do.
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  #37  
Old 25th June 2009, 22:53
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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SM, casting
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  #38  
Old 26th June 2009, 00:06
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MJ and S M . I think you have totaly missed the point of the thread and appear to want to argue and enjoy talking rubbish and feminine stuff with Jok .

Jo has a combinded Chiefs Ticket ; has been in the business for over 30 years from apprentice to Chief then Super and now Tech Director .
The Canadian Arctic is an unforgiving place at best and the work is tough .
Jo has gone from apprentice to the top not because of gender but due to ability during all of her service .
I doubt either of you are as well qualified or have as much experience .Certainly not in Arctic Operations and rescue .
Time for you lads to chill out and go somewhere else for an argument if that is what turns you on .


Derek
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  #39  
Old 26th June 2009, 00:46
JoK JoK is offline  
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Thanks Roger.

Now that I did my posturing, I agree there are people, both men and woman not cut out to go to sea. I have seen a lot of crap go on, that the individuals should have been fired on the spot, both for out and out harassment and abuse and sexual overtures. That goes both ways.
There are no favours done when a woman is put on a ship with no idea what they are getting into and how to deal with it. There are also no favors when management chooses to turn a blind eye to goings on. I have also seen woman taken off the ship and on the next chopper for being stupid. I have also seen guys damm near get fired for sexual misconduct.

The point is, you do not stand there and tell a person they can't do the job because they are not capable and if they are doing it it is because they have sexual orientation issues. That is beyond stupid.

I worked on a pretty interesting OBO and by the end of 2 months, never mind 4, I was pretty stunned with exhaustion. But you know what, so were my co-workers. Sure there were jobs I couldn't do, but there were jobs I was doing that the guys couldn't so it evened out. That's were a good 2nd comes in to the picture, doesn't it?
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  #40  
Old 26th June 2009, 02:34
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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I am going to quote a paragraph or two and maybe you want to explain what you mean because with only 37 years experience I do not get what you are saying.

"The point is, you do not stand there and tell a person they can't do the job because they are not capable and if they are doing it it is because they have sexual orientation issues. That is beyond stupid."

and

"Sure there were jobs I couldn't do, but there were jobs I was doing that the guys couldn't so it evened out."

So what were those jobs, I changed pistons and flogged up head bolts and I could also cook, iron and clean besides knitting and making matts from rope, I can type and back in the day could take a sight. I made extra money cutting hair and could sow on a button.

My container ship always ran on time, my costs were the lowest in the fleet and you could eat your food from the bilges that I cleaned personally.

Many guys did the same if not more than me and yet we also saw the preferential treatment handed out to women.

Did my first trip as 2/E on a gas tanker in the Baltic during the winter of 1978 and which was recorded as one of the coldest in history. Stuck numerous times in ice and had to learn real quick about operating a ship in those conditions. Is minus 43 degree's experience enough. Then again it was minus 41 in Northern Canada one winter and we were drifting around for 7 days. At least I got all of the liners changed without loosing any charter time in that period.

As for missing the point of the thread, I think so many get blinded by my forthright views and maybe those of SM as well they do not read what I actually write.

I have said I believe there could be a place for women on certain types of ships and where JoK mentions having 110 men on board one I would guess that is some kind of research ship with probably alot smaller engines or machinery parts.

I would have loved having that many folk onboard instead of a full complement of something like 32 to 38 on a British Flag ship down to 17 on a FOC container ship. On those FOC ships we had to take our chances on getting a good 2/E and most of the time our luck was out so we just had to do it all ourselves.

As for the thread itself, I have tried to voice my views but yet again you do not read them. Why would a shipping company spend thousands on training a women and then take the chance of her going off on a ship when she was pregnant at say 2 or 3 months. She has to do a 4 or 5 month trip and be physically able to do the work from the first day onboard until pay-off.

Would she sue the company if she lost the baby at say 7 months because she had to use the flogging hammer as the hydraulic gear is bust or would she expect a man to do her job because she was pregnant.

Now if that women had no interest in men and therefore no chance of getting pregnant that would be a different story unless of course she was in a relationship with a dyke and wanted to get pregnant by artificial means.

So we go around to my first post, if there are women to be on ships a dyke would probably be the best bet unless it was an English Dyke because I understand they are to get the same pregnancy leave as there partners now.

and of course I say this with no malice or prejudice as it seems if one also writes that in ones posts you do not get attacked.
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  #41  
Old 26th June 2009, 14:56
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Going back to Cap'n Pete's original question, it seems to me that one way of improving things would be to make sure that people with views such as MJ and Satan are weeded out during the selection process.
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  #42  
Old 26th June 2009, 15:27
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Satanic Mechanic Satanic Mechanic is offline  
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As usual I have not done myself any favours there, just to clarify folks, I have sailed with many females and more often than not enjoyed the experience and am fully aware that they are capable of doing the job and I was over the moon when one of my ex apprentices got her Chiefs job. My only reservation is from a social point of view where as a preference I prefer all male compliments but it is in no way essential or am I in anyway unhappy when it is mixed.

Getting back to the original point and expanding on it

How can you get anyone to go to sea in the first place these days?
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  #43  
Old 26th June 2009, 16:00
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OMG MJ, your post is hilarious at the end. However, I think in the US, whatever you are smoking is illegal!!
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  #44  
Old 26th June 2009, 16:30
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Originally Posted by benjidog View Post
seems to me that one way of improving things would be to make sure that people with views such are weeded out during the selection process.
No wish to comment on anyone in particulars views save to say that people who have views which may be distasteful on any topic are usually very good at hiding same. It would not work.
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  #45  
Old 26th June 2009, 18:30
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I've sailed with 9 females over the years. 3 are now holders of Class 1 Master Mariner tickets, 1 is sailing as Master. As for the other 6? I believe one jumped ship in Melbourne in 1980 for a customs guy other than that I don't know. All were well capable of doing the job asked of them & they gave as good as they got, which brought respect from most men on board, needless to say there was always 1 or 2 men who thought they were of the 'Hollywood' type & were a bit upset that they were not getting the attention, from the girls, they thought their looks should get.
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  #46  
Old 27th June 2009, 01:23
MARINEJOCKY MARINEJOCKY is offline  
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I suggest you all look at post # 37.

SM, do not worry about being "de-selected" as that comment came from some one who may have been once or twice on the Govan ferry and has never been to sea in his life. In fact I wonder if he knows what an engine room is really like.

Jok, I am glad to bring some joy into your life. As for smoking never have and never will but then again there was a time in............, could not smoke due to H & S reg's and I had a bad sniff at that time !!!!!!
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  #47  
Old 27th June 2009, 01:41
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Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
No wish to comment on anyone in particulars views save to say that people who have views which may be distasteful on any topic are usually very good at hiding same.
A very good point Bill ; people can pass an interview and then turn out to be real Pillocks .
We see some of that here ; it is fortunate that most of them do not get through the net .

Regards Derek

Last edited by K urgess; 27th June 2009 at 11:16.. Reason: Quote fixed
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