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  #1  
Old 27th October 2005, 12:59
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Thumbs up paddler question

can anyone tell me if there was ever a paddler built that had the capabilityof going ahead on one and astern on the other for manouvering? I think not, but my overeducated mate here says there was. anyone help on this one? I got a large tot staked on this one guy's
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  #2  
Old 27th October 2005, 14:39
Piero43 Piero43 is offline  
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I'm not a paddler expert, but, technically speaking, the only way would be to operate the port and starbord wheels with two indipendent engines.
Another way could be to insert two reverse gears between a single engine and the two wheels, but this looks quite intricate and scarcely reliable in manoeuvering, expecially in emergency.
So: has ever been built a paddler with two indipendent engines? The answer to our historical experts!
P.
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  #3  
Old 27th October 2005, 15:09
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Hi:
There were a few.
I posted a picture in the Gallery of the train ferry 'Solano' on Oct. 2.
She had independent walking beam engines on the centerline, each attached to separate paddle shafts.
The following site has photos of a model of the ferry showing the configuration of the engines and shafts.
http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Ephemera/...rry_Model.html

Bruce C.
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  #4  
Old 27th October 2005, 15:31
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To my knowlege independent drives to each paddle was the norm. As such they were very easy to manouver.
For efficiency the paddle blades "feathered " to maintain a vertical position relative to the water ;that is; they did not lift water on the blades upward portion of the revolution .All the effort being put into forward motion or astern as the case may be.
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  #5  
Old 27th October 2005, 15:45
Valayer Valayer is offline  
 
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Believe the Tay paddler-ferries, before the war, and until early 50's (BL Nairn and Sir William High) had a pair of horizontal steam engines, one port one starboard. I used to watch them as a kid from the lounge, which had windows overlooking the machinery.
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  #6  
Old 27th October 2005, 20:01
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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I remember reading somewhere that most British paddlers did not have independent shafts, but paddle tugs, as a necessity of their business, did.

Bruce C.
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  #7  
Old 28th October 2005, 02:25
neil maclachlan neil maclachlan is offline  
 
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neil maclachlan, member.

Hi Guys,
Re the paddler question, I served my apprenticeship with a company famous for building steam engines,by the name of "Rankin & Blackmore Ltd"Eagle Foundry, Greenock Scotland. During my time there we built a number of side paddle and stern wheel engines. The side paddlers were the "Waverley, Maid of the loch, Bristol Queen" None of these ships had paddles independantly driven as the crankshaft drove both paddles,the paddles had a eccentric feathering device that allowed the paddles to feather as they came out of the water. I sailed on many paddle steamers during my younger days on the Clyde and never once saw any steamer of that type different,the only one different from the normal was the "PS Talisman",she had a diesel engine by British Polar Engines Ltd of Glasgow driving an E.E.C. Electric Motor. The Talisman was built by A&J. Inglis of Pointhouse on the Clyde same builder who built "Waverley". My grandfather was a tugboat master with Clyde Shipping Company, he was master of the "Flying Scotsman", she was a paddler and had a beam engine both paddles driven by the one engine. Hope my comments may help clear up the question although I feel there may be an arguement somewhere?
Awra Best--NeilMac.
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  #8  
Old 28th October 2005, 02:51
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An interesting subject . Both Valayer and I have the same recollection of the BL Nairn having two horizontal steam engines . It is most unlikley they were connected however I keep an open mind. Some more research is necessary . Back to the old textbooks ! However from what you tell us Neil it seems it was not the norm to have independant paddles .
Cheers Derek
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  #9  
Old 28th October 2005, 02:53
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Both survivng British built paddle tugs that I know of, the 'John H. Amos' and the 'Eppleton Hall' each have two engines turning independent shafts.

Bruce C.
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  #10  
Old 28th October 2005, 23:44
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Gentlemen, I thank you for the information you have given, looks like i get a free tot!!I also heard the rumor that independant paddles would cause a capsize.
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  #11  
Old 29th October 2005, 00:51
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Not so fast Billyboy

I have found a number of vessels which have two engines ; each one independantly driving one (1) paddle .

Bruce Carsons comment supports this .

It seems that from about 1850 twin engines each on a separate paddle was the norm for large vessels .

Wee paddlers would not have enough room for a twin engine arrangement therfore would never be candidates for such a drive system .

The disadvantage of independant drives was nothing to do with stability ; but the extra difficulty steering if the two power plants were not giving equal revs /power to the paddles.

A further Big advantage to these configurations as well as manouverability was that there was no crankshaft going across the vessel which opened up the midship space from engine room to cargo or passengers .

A paddle ship going full ahead Port and Full Ahead Stbd would turn on its own axis . Nothing to do with stability which is a function of the GM . It would spin like a top ! ( albeit a slow top )

Most paddle steamers in the UK and Astralia were shallow draft ; flat bottomed vessels ( suited to shallow water operation ) They would have a high GM and if anything would be a bit " stiff '.

Deep sea vessels would be somewhat different and if a passenger ship; it could be a bit "tender " .

This was a function of the design by the naval architects and would not be a result of independant drives to paddles . A transatlantic voyage would not involve much manouvering .

Keep the pot boiling Billy !
You have a hot! one here .


Regards Derek
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  #12  
Old 29th October 2005, 11:10
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Thanks Roger for that info. Looks like the probability of my free (double) Tot is wavering a bitmate!! coming from Scotish stock this could have a serious effect on "ma weee Sporran" LOL
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  #13  
Old 29th October 2005, 12:45
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Ah! just a wee minute now. think I can recall as a child hearing that either the "bristol or Cardif Queen" had this capability but were afraid to use iti n fear of stability probs, hence my late father used to swing them round with a TID tug when they were in newhaven for a summer season. gOLLY GOSH , I MUST BE HAVING ONE OF "THOSE" MOMENTS WE CAN SPEAK ABOUT HERE ... lol
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  #14  
Old 29th October 2005, 13:40
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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I had forgotten the most obvious--the "Mississippi" type steamboat on the Western rivers of North America.
The sidewheelers, which outnumberd the sternwheelers by far, traditionally had two single cylinder simple horizontal engines, one to port and the other to starboard independently working the wheels
The sternwheelers often had port and starboard engines to work the single wheel.

Bruce C.
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  #15  
Old 23rd December 2006, 04:06
Keith Adams Keith Adams is offline  
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A wee bit late with this but Lamey Towing Company on the Mersey had a
paddle tug still operating in the late 1940s... I used to watch her in action in
and out of Alfred Locks in Birkenhead, towing Trampships... in tandem with a conventional steam tug also of Lamey... wish I had taken photos, she could turn
on sixpence! Snowy.
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  #16  
Old 23rd December 2006, 12:33
Paedrig Paedrig is offline  
 
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I believe there were one or two early paddle tugs on the Thames that manoeuvred by virtue of moving a weighted bogie athwartships dipping or lifting the paddles. I was told that they had had a special name..probably unprintable!
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  #17  
Old 23rd December 2006, 13:05
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Paedrig!! "probably unprintable" you say! ... heh heh heh that should keep a few guessing over the holiday mate ... LOL
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  #18  
Old 23rd December 2006, 16:16
benjidog benjidog is offline
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Out of interest I just checked out the book "A history of Marine Engineering" but John Guthrie and could find no mention of paddlers with separate engines attached to each paddle. The book seems pretty comprehensive on matters related to engines but obviously he could have just decided not to include such vessels.

Brian
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  #19  
Old 23rd December 2006, 16:22
Santos Santos is offline  
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Dont know if anyone has seen the following site, very interesting :-http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/trinken/37.gif

http://www.megoran.fsworld.co.uk/Ind...7;20Wheels.htm

Sorry Billyboy, hope your sporran recovers.

Happy Christmas http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/trinken/555.gif

Last edited by Santos; 23rd December 2006 at 21:08..
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  #20  
Old 24th December 2006, 01:41
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Thanks Santos !
I rest my case !
I was particularily happy to see the comment re the B.L Nairn ( Dundee to Newport ) which both Valayer and I commented on and observed as kids . The Grey Cells are still in good nick it would appear.

Sorry about the Dram Billy ! No mateer I will stand my hand should we meet up some day .
Derek
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  #21  
Old 25th December 2006, 02:46
Alistair Black Alistair Black is offline  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyboy View Post
Ah! just a wee minute now. think I can recall as a child hearing that either the "bristol or Cardif Queen" had this capability but were afraid to use iti n fear of stability probs, hence my late father used to swing them round with a TID tug when they were in newhaven for a summer season. gOLLY GOSH , I MUST BE HAVING ONE OF "THOSE" MOMENTS WE CAN SPEAK ABOUT HERE ... lol

Given that Bristol Queen was engined by Rankin & Blackmore of Greenock (almost identical to Waverley's engine) and Cardiff Queen was built (and presumably engined) by Fairfield's of Govan, it is likely that both were triple expansion single shafted engines (certainly the case for BQ, would need to research CQ).

The urban myth about passenger paddlers putting one ahead and one astern still rears its misinformed head aboard Waverley despite the obvious fact that there is one continuous crankshaft running across the ship from side to side!

Al.
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  #22  
Old 25th December 2006, 10:39
Tony Breach Tony Breach is offline
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Confirm CARDIFF QUEEN was engined by Fairfields,triple expansion.

Books to read:
Paddle Steamer Machinery - a layman's guide. R.J.Ramsay.
Steam at Sea. Denis Griffiths (Chapter 2 - paddle engines)
Neither discuss divided drives.

In correspondence of the magazine Model Boats about 40 years ago concerning the steering qualities of paddlers, there was a letter from someone who I beleive was a senior marine engineer, possibly a surveyor or examiner. He advised that a paddler with divided drive had capsized on the London River with heavy loss of life as a result of turning short round with one engine ahead & the other astern. I beleive this occurred during the latter half of the 19th century; possibly the 1870s. Following the enquiry the use of independently operating paddles was prohibited by the BOT. Does anyone know of this incident? While I fully agree that statical stability is quantified as GM, we are talking about an unusual dynamic condition which may affect the stability and exert a force that will act adversely: is there a naval architect out there who could advise? My own experience of paddle steamers (BRISTOL QUEEN) makes me think that they were a little short of GM but I was an AB on her & not privy to the stability data: perhaps John Megoran could expand on this???

Tony.
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  #23  
Old 25th December 2006, 10:45
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the poor wee sporan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santos View Post
Dont know if anyone has seen the following site, very interesting :-http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/trinken/37.gif

http://www.megoran.fsworld.co.uk/Ind...t%20Wheels.htm

Sorry Billyboy, hope your sporran recovers.

Happy Christmas http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/trinken/555.gif
I thank you for the information and the website evidence. I am away to get the key of my sporan now. sad on the finances but grand on the educationa side .
tank you all for your help guys.
have a good 2007 lads.
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  #24  
Old 25th December 2006, 23:44
terence terence is offline  
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hey billy boy what about the savannah sailing ship collapsible paddle.wheels
an engine that ran for85 hours that should be onley sorry across the atlantic for 85 days rest was sail terry music man



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  #25  
Old 27th December 2006, 06:15
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Disconnecting apparatus.

Quoting from "The Marine Steam Engine" eleventh ed. London 1911: In paddle-wheel tug-boats, gear is usually fitted to enable the wheels to be disconnected from each other, and each engine worked independently, to facilitate the manoeuvering of the vessel. In many cases an ordinary disconnecting clutch is fitted on the intermediate shaft for this purpose.
Another plan consists in fitting a cast iron disc on the intermediate shaft, in lieu of a crank-arm. This is driven by feathers on the shaft, over which it may be drawn back, clear from the crank-pin, when the engines are required to work independently.
In the more recent paddle-wheel tug-boats in His Majesty's service a pair of cylinders, forming a compound engine, has been attached to each crank. The shafts for each wheel may either be connected by a clutch coupling, or left quite independent of each other, for the engines will be entirely under control whether they are coupled or not. (End of quote)
Taking paddle-wheel history as a whole, independently worked wheels are a rarity. The early wooden paddle-tugs with one cylinder single engines did of course not have it. Keeping both wheels on one crank/axle would be an obvious necessity (more so the further from sheltered waters; the in-line engines of Bruce's train ferry is not a workable proposition elsewhere), and workable disconnecting gear with the hammered iron smith-work of the early engines is hard to imagine. Although it certainly must have engaged nautical engineers dealing with tugs and ferries long before it became a reality. An interesting thread that could be long amended; when was it first accomplished? Stein

Last edited by stein; 27th December 2006 at 06:49..
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