Engineers in the officers saloon - Page 3 - Ships Nostalgia
21:38

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Engineers in the officers saloon

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #51  
Old 11th November 2016, 10:00
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Morrison View Post
I always knew it as the Engineers mess. Day working smoko's coffee in the morning tea in the afternoon. The 4-8 watch had dinner in the mess but I think though not sure the 12-4 had lunch in the main saloon before their watch.
It was like this with BSL , but whilst on the coast on day work pulling units the 2nd used to request from the Grocer filled bread rolls in the duty mess.
Everybody was a winner particulary the grocer as it lowered his feeding rate.
We used to have a pub lunch in the bar on Saturdays at sea or in port (including the crew). When the company was trying to make more savings, they changed to a pub lunch everyday but Sunday, there was always a hot dish as well as cold meat and salads. The pub lunch allowed the engineers on the coast a good lunch without having to spend half an hour in the shower. No boiler suits were allowed in the bar, but mufti was ok.

As regards the curl on the stripes, BSL was allowed to wear them instead of the MN diamond. This was because of the number of ships lost in WW11. They also had a couple of ships in the famous Malta convoy, the tanker Pacific Star and the Melbourne Star.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11th November 2016, 11:14
Orbitaman's Avatar
Orbitaman Orbitaman is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1977 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
My location
Posts: 1,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
It was like this with BSL , but whilst on the coast on day work pulling units the 2nd used to request from the Grocer filled bread rolls in the duty mess.
Everybody was a winner particulary the grocer as it lowered his feeding rate.
We used to have a pub lunch in the bar on Saturdays at sea or in port (including the crew). When the company was trying to make more savings, they changed to a pub lunch everyday but Sunday, there was always a hot dish as well as cold meat and salads. The pub lunch allowed the engineers on the coast a good lunch without having to spend half an hour in the shower. No boiler suits were allowed in the bar, but mufti was ok.

As regards the curl on the stripes, BSL was allowed to wear them instead of the MN diamond. This was because of the number of ships lost in WW11. They also had a couple of ships in the famous Malta convoy, the tanker Pacific Star and the Melbourne Star.
I draw your attention to the following thread that dispels the myth that certain companies were granted the right to wear curls:

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showth...curls+diamonds
__________________
He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher...or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11th November 2016, 12:46
chadburn chadburn is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,573
Looking at the Ron Stringer contribution as pointed out, the only comment I would make is in regards to the semi Military role by the M.N. during wartime.
All M.N. Vessels were under N.C.S (Naval Control of Shipping) the Military along with the Ministry of Food/Supply determined which cargo, where and when it was shipped. Free trading in wartime was generally set aside. Shipping Companies only managed the vessels on behalf of Government and Military.
As some of the larger vessels carried the Convoy Commodore and his R.N. Staff there would I suggest be some sort of Rank alignment regarding uniform, the RFA is a good example of change from M.N. to semi Military although the Crew 'Terms and Conditions' are civilian based.
__________________
Geordie Chief

From Grey Funnel to any Funnel, just show him/ me the money Mabel

Last edited by chadburn; 11th November 2016 at 12:53..
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12th November 2016, 16:46
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is offline   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadburn View Post
Looking at the Ron Stringer contribution as pointed out, the only comment I would make is in regards to the semi Military role by the M.N. during wartime. ........
Whilst Ron always posts with authority I think this needs a bit more research.

1)--------------

Here is something I found at Crewtoo. Veracity, of course unchecked as yet:

.However, there was no official uniform of the Merchant Navy until one was introduced by the British Board of Trade in 1918. The uniforms then reflected not simply rank onboard, but of the responsibilities too. With gold bars and colours on epaulettes to denote who did what, and at what level.

2)------------

The UK Merchant shipping act as it stands in its unamended (1995), as yet, form makes it a criminal offence to wear MN uniform when attempting to impersonate. A bit strange, that if there is no such thing:

.57
Uniform.
(1)
Subject to subsection (3) below, if any person, not being entitled to wear the merchant navy uniform, wears that uniform or any part thereof, or any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the distinctive marks of that uniform, he shall be guilty of an offence.
(2)
A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable, on summary conviction,—
(a)
except in a case falling within paragraph (b) below, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;
(b)
if he wears it in such a manner or under such circumstances as to be likely to bring contempt on the uniform, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month.
(3)
Subsection (1) above shall not prevent any person from wearing any uniform or dress in the course or for the purposes of a stage play or representation, or a music-hall or circus performance if the uniform is not worn in such a manner or under such circumstances as to bring it into contempt.
(4)
If any person entitled to wear the merchant navy uniform when aboard a ship in port or on shore appears dressed partly in uniform and partly not in uniform under such circumstances as to be likely to bring contempt on the uniform, or, being entitled to wear the uniform appropriate to a particular rank or position, wears the uniform appropriate to some higher rank or position, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

3)-----------

I clearly remember either at the shipping office in Liverpool (or possibly MIMCO Pall Mall) a poster laying out the badges of rank.

Perhaps a photograph of our first Captain of the Merchant Navy uniformed in that capacity would be a start (he being that selfish Royal wimp of whom we were well rid).
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12th November 2016, 17:22
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,823
So when my little brother nicked my No white high collared jacket and dyed it pink and wore it with a big clock as a pendant he was not only a thief and a prat, but bringing the uniform into contempt.

I am, of course, still furious about this, even after nearly 50 years.
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12th November 2016, 17:33
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
Yes, well.
With BSL if you went ashore in uniform say out of the dock gate you was fined a case of beer by the lads.
Green as grass on my first ship in Liverpool, I nipped up to the Post Office one lunchtime in uniform (less cap) on the E.R bike which was painted a differant colour on each part.
Got a few whistles from the dockers (well those that had teeth).
I didn't do that again.

I like para 3 ,
" circus or music hall act"
There were certainly a few of those especially first night in port after a month at sea.
I have also worn my uniform jacket to a fancy dress dance and as a spectator to a local amdram music hall performance in which attendees were asked to dress in period costume. The uniform is ageless and I got the prize (bottle of wine) for the best dressed, they thought I may have been a serving officer in the RN so got the sympathy vote.
Also at last years local rememberance parade I donned uniform and cap with MN badge as opposed to BSL cap badge and turned up.
One chap asked, "Are you a Lt Commander Surgeon?" "No", replied "But can bandage a leg, or set up a sling for a broken arm."
"The LobLolly department is red as opposed to purple in the Engineering department, and I happen to be Merchant Navy, not Gray Funnel Line".
The rest were ex brown jobs.
During the march through the town when some ex RSM was shouting the steps I was always the opposite foot. We never marched up ER ladders but ran and slid down on the handrails.

Perhaps it was only the large companies like has been said , like Ben Line, Clan Line, Blue Star line that had been awarded the privilage of the curl (optional) because they lost so many ships being larger companies as opposed to the 6 ship companies.
At the outbreak of WW ll BSL had 38 ships totaling 381,000grt.
After 6 years of hostilities they had lost 29 vessels, a total 646 lives lost out of a total 30,000 MN casualities.

Last edited by sternchallis; 12th November 2016 at 17:50..
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12th November 2016, 17:50
David W David W is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 101
With reference to post 54,
In a similar thread titled "BP braid", I enclosed a poster showing the official Merchant Navy uniform insignia from the Captain downwards, these insignia included the non officer grades of the crew including the catering and deck departments.
I imagine strictures as to to the misuse of the "official" Merchant Navy uniform,as laid out in the 1995 Merchant Shipping Act, apply only to that uniform, and not to any livery that shipowners may impose on their crew members.

To the best of my memory the only time I saw a Merchant Navy shoulder flash was on the unforms worn by trainees at the National Sea Training Schools.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12th November 2016, 17:51
Orbitaman's Avatar
Orbitaman Orbitaman is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1977 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
My location
Posts: 1,815
Perhaps it was only the large companies like has been said , like Ben Line, Clan Line, Blue Star line that had been awarded the privilage of the curl (optional) because they lost so many ships being larger companies as opposed to the 6 ship companies.
At the outbreak of WW ll BSL had 38 ships totaling 381,000grt.
After 6 years of hostilities they had lost 29 vessels, a total 646 lives lost out of a total 30,000 MN casualities.

You really aren't getting the message are you? The story of awarding curls instead of diamonds is a myth, work of fiction, fabrication or a load of tosh! Take your pick. The choice of curls was down the decision of the employer and nothing else.
__________________
He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher...or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12th November 2016, 19:12
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1970 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,916
In Texaco Overseas Tankship we wore diamond epaulettes on our boiler suits and curls on our Red Sea Rig and No 1 uniform.

I have often heard it said that P&O and Cunard Officers expected Texaco (and Caltex) to set the standard and they would follow.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 12th November 2016, 19:27
Stephen J. Card's Avatar
Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,309
Captain EJ Smith on board OLYMPIC 1911.

Not the uniform. The 'curl' was used by White Star Line... well before WW1 and WW2 as well.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capt Smith.jpg (226.2 KB, 87 views)
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 12th November 2016, 20:45
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
Perhaps it was the companies in Liner trades that had the curl, rather than those at the bottom end the trampers, if they wore a uniform at all.
I remember we were Mediteranian moored in Malta when the Admirals barge came alongside crewed and officered by Wrens in their black stockings. There Officer was shown up to our Captain. He hadn't shaved that morning as he was saving it to before the party we were having that night with girls from the agents office. He was requested to accompany the Wren to the Admirals quarters. He was in tropical rig (with the curls).
When he arrived at the Admirals quarters there was a captain from both P&O and Shaw Saville both in civvies. The admiral was not amused.
We were the only ship that dipped the ensign on passing the signal tower.

Last edited by sternchallis; 12th November 2016 at 21:10..
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12th November 2016, 21:03
Stephen J. Card's Avatar
Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
GPerhaps it was the companies in Liner trades that had the curl, rather than those at the bottom end the trampers, if they wore a uniform at all.
I remember we were Mediteranian moored in Malta when the Admirals barge came alongside crewed and officered by Wrens in their black stockings. There Officer was shown up to our Captain. He hadn't shaved that morning as he was saving it to before the party we were having that night with girls from the agents office. He was requested to accompany the Wren to the Admirals quarters. He was in tropical rig (with the curls).
When he arrived at the Admirals quarters there was a captain from both P&O and Shaw Saville both in civvies. The admiral was not amused.
We were the only ship that dipped the ensign on passing the signal tower.
Good one!

The Royal Navy is gentlemen trying to be officers.

The Merchant Navy is officers trying to be gentlemen.

P&O is neither trying to be the either!



Shaw Savill and Cunard do not use diamond or curls. Straight 1/2 inch braid.

A few years ago Cunard tried to copy the Norwegians. So master now wears four stripe with an extra wide stripe, with a diamond on the top. When they started using it the engineers said, "No. We will stay with the old Cunard plain stripes."
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12th November 2016, 21:12
spongebob's Avatar
spongebob spongebob is online now
Spongebob
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1957 - 1961
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,822
NZ Shipping Co and Federal line wore shoulder eppulettes only on all uniforms
__________________
spongebob,
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 12th November 2016, 21:39
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
I believe that old chestnut was how they used to distinguish between RN, RNR & RNVR during the war, but not sure how it went.
But here goes.
RN - gentlemen trying to be sailors
RNR - Sailors trying to be gentlemen
RNVR - Neither trying to be both.

But could have got it mixed up.

Next time I am up in the loft I will take a rule and measure the stripes and diameter of the curls on my reefer jacket.
I wore my cap longer last year at the Remberance parade in the town, than I did in 10 years at sea.After the 2nd trip it got left at home.
When did Engineers wear their caps.
It was normally a cotton bush hat in the ER.

Epaulettes - 3/8" gold stripe, Curl 1 1/2" OD.

Another fine was if you wore your curly epaulettes on wrong shoulder, so the wave was going the wrong way.
Case of beer for the lads.
Crossing the line first time - case of beer
International Date Line " " - " " "
First foreign port like wise,

That is if you fell for it.

Last edited by sternchallis; 12th November 2016 at 21:41..
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12th November 2016, 21:57
ninabaker's Avatar
ninabaker ninabaker is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1972 - 1979
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 916
Talking to the cadets at the local nautical college, who get sent onto a whole range of different companies' ships during their seatime, it seems that the vast majority of companies dont wear uniform at all any more, or perhaps just a logo-ed poloshirt. The cruise companies of course still have a million different uniforms and apparently spend half their day changing them.

nina
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 13th November 2016, 10:14
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is offline   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
Vanity of vanities: All is vanity.

I also clearly remember a circular letter (or whatever MIMCO called them) banning the use of the so-called "Bombay" cap badge.

I now note that Clyde Uniforms have them at a premium to the "proper" ones.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 13th November 2016, 10:57
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
Vanity of vanities: All is vanity.

I also clearly remember a circular letter (or whatever MIMCO called them) banning the use of the so-called "Bombay" cap badge.

I now note that Clyde Uniforms have them at a premium to the "proper" ones.
Not vanity, but pride and a way to separate officers from crew.

It just shows the drop in standards these days when you look around you people are so scruffy, no ties, unpolished shoes, clothes that don't fit and most hourly paid wearing black, uniformed youth organisations stooping so low to wear tee shirts( and you cannot say because lack of money, when in the1950's when money was scarce these organisations wore smart uniforms).
As soon as you drop standards of dress every other standard drops.
How many times have you seen people on the phone in a restaurant, lack of table manners.

After all the British Merchant Navy was the 4th Service and lost more men and ships than the RN.

But then we don't have a British Merchant Navy, cross channel ferries don't count.
The odd ship with a British master and the flag of the Bermuda on the stern is hardly MN.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 13th November 2016, 12:10
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1970 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,916
In Kuwait Shipping we used to sit in the Duty Mess in our oily, sweaty, smelly boiler suits and wonder how many P&O and BI officers could stand on the head of a pin. Or fit through the eye of a needle.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 13th November 2016, 14:14
Varley's Avatar
Varley Varley is offline   SN Supporter
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Active: 1971 - 2011
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,402
I am not sure that HM would have been proud if hubby had appeared today with a cap badge double the size of that laid down for Lords High Admiral. Pride is dangerous enough without an haughty spirit too.

I am sure we never considered how KSC officers, however well self-lubricated or noisome, would fit through the eye of a needle. We knew you were too rich.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 13th November 2016, 14:38
slick slick is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Royal Fleet Auxilary
Department: Deck
Active: 1958 - 2002
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,509
All,
I thought the golden rule was Engineers
"stopped where the carpeted started".
Come on, I never in 40 plus years at sea encountered any rules of the type referred to in the early posts...

Yours aye,

slick
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 13th November 2016, 15:48
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1973 - 1983
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick View Post
All,
I thought the golden rule was Engineers
"stopped where the carpeted started".
Come on, I never in 40 plus years at sea encountered any rules of the type referred to in the early posts...

Yours aye,

slick
No carpetting in the alleyways, but yes in the cabins.

I don't think US merchant ships have carpets in the cabins, any of them, just plastic tiles. I think their bunks and cabin furniture are all steel, perhaps because of the 'fire risk'.
The dining arrangements are a bit like M'cD's, but then they are used to that.
I didn't sail with them but involved in the building of Jone's Act ships in Florida.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 13th November 2016, 16:33
Hamish Mackintosh Hamish Mackintosh is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,567
Just like a Sam boat ah!
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 13th November 2016, 17:20
Binnacle's Avatar
Binnacle Binnacle is offline  
Senior Member
Department: Deck
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,927
[QUOTE=sternchallis;2252714]
After all the British Merchant Navy was the 4th Service and lost more men and ships than the RN.
QUOTE]

RN losses were greater, over 50,000 is quoted. The MN may be referred to by an author as a "fourth Service" but merchant seamen under the terms of the Geneva Convention are classed as civilians. British merchant seamen under emergency National Service Acts were merely deferred from military service, any leaving a vessel without lawful cause would be referred to the conscripting power for enlistment in armed forces for those of conscription age, others could be directed to war related employment. During hostilities it has been said that Britain had the most draconian of labour laws ever enforced in a democracy. Civilian deaths alone, outwith the MN due to enemy action amounted to 67,000 thousand.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 13th November 2016, 17:48
trotterdotpom trotterdotpom is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 18,354
Google Malag Milag Nord for interesting article about Merchant Navy POWs in WW2.

John T
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 13th November 2016, 22:02
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1970 - Present
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,916
#71, The dining arrangements are a bit like M'cD's, but then they are used to that.

And strangers to knives and forks.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Last chance saloon.... rushie BP Shipping 0 18th September 2006 21:17



Support SN


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.