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  #26  
Old 29th March 2019, 21:38
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
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No doubt there will be an Engineer Super looking for a job now with Cruise ship and MAN experience

And the bean counter gets promoted. Sometimes shipping just makes you sick.
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  #27  
Old 29th March 2019, 21:49
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# 21

It is human nature, and maritime tradition, to try to cover up minor embarrassment's at sea but I'm afraid Viking Sky is probably too big a mess.
Things like Norwegian Owner, Norwegian Flag, Norwegian Class and Norwegian Coast will not make a pins difference to the inquiry but a good look at the VDR could be helpful.
a lot depends on how many channels input there was on the VDR and whether the Master/OOW saved the data, we await the report.
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  #28  
Old 30th March 2019, 02:37
skilly57 skilly57 is offline  
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Engineer Super probably now in line for managing director's job! Most places I have been, if someone makes a major stuff-up (if they admit it was them), then instant promotion is normally in order!

Skilly
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  #29  
Old 30th March 2019, 07:02
stein stein is online now  
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The police are investigating both the engine failure of Viking Sky and that of Hagland Captain. The bay where both ships lost power, btw., is very popular with surfers due to the heavy ground-swells.
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  #30  
Old 31st March 2019, 07:15
skilly57 skilly57 is offline  
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Should have looked up my book earlier - I was running 4 x MAN 32/40s on a seismic ship back in early 2014. The Viking Sky engines (MAN 32/44) were developed from the 32/40s.
We didn't have any rough weather oil level troubles as we always kept the tank levels up to the marks, and, with a huge towed array out the back, it stopped a lot of wild ship movement.

Skilly
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  #31  
Old 31st March 2019, 09:58
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The police are investigating both the engine failure of Viking Sky and that of Hagland Captain. The bay where both ships lost power, btw., is very popular with surfers due to the heavy ground-swells.
Pilot was also on board.


The young and fit passengers can abandon ship in their own personal 'wind surf board'.
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  #32  
Old 31st March 2019, 12:24
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
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If all the surfers and wind surfers in the world pooled their savings only three of them could buy a ticket for an Inside Cabin on the Viking Sky.
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  #33  
Old 31st March 2019, 12:34
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If all the surfers and wind surfers in the world pooled their savings only three of them could buy a ticket for an Inside Cabin on the Viking Sky.

Probably yes on NCL or RCI!
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  #34  
Old 31st March 2019, 13:07
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#31

As to any liability of those on the bridge, I recall that even as long as thirty years ago that any ship proposing to enter the Mersey was required to make a positive report of "no defects" or otherwise to declare any relevant defects before attempting to enter. Check-lists, cross-checks and double checks (as on an aircraft flight deck) are surely even more intense today aboard any cruise liner?

It is difficult to see (or believe) that anybody on the bridge of Viking Sky would have made the decision to proceed in the conditions prevailing if he had been given the slightest idea that the main engines might be even a little faulty.
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  #35  
Old 31st March 2019, 13:30
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Well, there is always Schettino but that aside I would agree, Barrie. There is however a difference between having the slightest idea and should have had the slightest idea where be the stuff of negligence.
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  #36  
Old 31st March 2019, 13:36
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#35

It seems that any reference to Schettino can be ruled out - but otherwise I agree with you entirely. The words "knew or ought to have known" would seem to apply. Is there any indication that people knew or ought to have known that the main engines were dodgy? If so, who knew?
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  #37  
Old 31st March 2019, 13:52
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None that I can see so fare Barrie but I am sure that is one reason we all eagerly await the end to our armchair (perhaps that should be pilot or captain's chair) speculation by getting to the administration report. I still have my money on ill-executed/analysed redundancy

Following the El Faro I would view all such with spectacles that detect missing witness from the main third party players.

Last edited by Varley; 31st March 2019 at 15:44..
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  #38  
Old 31st March 2019, 14:30
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
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It would be illuminating to know if the Viking Sea, Sky, Star, Sun, Orion and Jupiter have been bunkering large quantities of Main Engine Lub Oil over the past week.
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  #39  
Old 31st March 2019, 16:03
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E-S. Does you interest come from the possibility the design levels are subject to the sort of improvised adjustment (maladjustment) suggested elsewhere on this thread? I don't remember such things being done (I would have thought I was nosey enough to know despite it not my business) if you did this sort of thing what else was there? Boilers?

I do remember adjusting delay timers to allow for a roll but the level itself was by float or capacitor probe. True I cannot remember a high level alarm but equally I would not have had that experience if the practice was to overfill?

The Gotaverken concept was to pump from sump to tank and then from tank to engine. Presumably the sump to tank might loose suction (fairly serious, scrolls if I remember) but the concept would seem to be proof against the failure mode envisaged here?
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  #40  
Old 1st April 2019, 10:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varley View Post
E-S. Does you interest come from the possibility the design levels are subject to the sort of improvised adjustment (maladjustment) suggested elsewhere on this thread? I don't remember such things being done (I would have thought I was nosey enough to know despite it not my business) if you did this sort of thing what else was there? Boilers?

I do remember adjusting delay timers to allow for a roll but the level itself was by float or capacitor probe. True I cannot remember a high level alarm but equally I would not have had that experience if the practice was to overfill?

The Gotaverken concept was to pump from sump to tank and then from tank to engine. Presumably the sump to tank might loose suction (fairly serious, scrolls if I remember) but the concept would seem to be proof against the failure mode envisaged here?
Indeed David, a proper "Dry Sump" system, there still appear a lot of unanswered (or even unaddressed) questions.

It would be interesting to see the makers recommendations for delay timings and those programmed into the system, both at building and at the time of incident. Casting my mind back here, but I've a feeling that on a Norcontrol system, if you altered timings on the keyboard it showed on the datalogger BUT if you had the key and altered the outstation no record was printed (I found this out after a near miss following tinkering by one watchkeeper and then removed all the keys that lived in the outstations).

I have little confidence in the investigation finding the root cause and even less of it being properly shared.
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  #41  
Old 1st April 2019, 11:03
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Duncan, I think you are illustrating complication disguised as sophistication. I only had a brief introduction to the Kongsberg IAS (Umm Bab trials) but if I remember correctly changes to the local PLC outstations was synchronised centrally (perhaps with some cycle delay - pity the vapenfabrikk don't join these threads).

However wouldn't that be either difficult to do as the rolling period changes with loading condition as well as the external excitation.

Perhaps we should not air our unprofessional ignorance too much or some software expert will try and integrate the loading and sea states into the programme to make it 'fool proof'.

Last edited by Varley; 1st April 2019 at 12:37..
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  #42  
Old 1st April 2019, 12:01
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Quote:
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Duncan, I think you are illustrating complication disguised as sophistication. I only had a brief introduction to the Kongsberg IAS (Umm Bab trials) but if I remember correctly changes to the local PLC outstations was synchronised centrally (perhaps with some cycle delay - pity the vapenfabrikk don't join these threads).

However wouldn't that be either difficult to do as the rolling period changes with loading condition as well as the external excitation.

Perhaps we should not air out unprofessional ignorance too much or some software expert will try and integrate the loading and sea states into the programme to make it 'fool proof'.
Thank you David, a very astute observation "complication disguised as sophistication" much evident in mobile phones of today, abetted by continual revisions of MS products that are especially designed not to be forwards compatible, ensuring a continued market!!

I can't remember who's system was fitted on a ferry I was on, but it retired to the pavilion, bat under arm one evening and refused to display anything other than MS solitaire on the screen - played a mean game but not much use on helping monitor the plant.
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  #43  
Old 1st April 2019, 12:56
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Manufacturers cannot economically provide a GUI that is not Windows based. Although a few years ago now an LR presentations on what was wrong with the implementation of IAS (and there was a great deal) included that our (merchant) industry does not present to MS as a large enough customer to share the technical details of their products much beyond that they consider appropriate to hand out to game player customers. Hardly a recipe for escaping systems failures or, indeed, testing for them.

I was very interested to see the explanation of a Visionmaster systems failure (very promptly and reputable dealt with by Sperry at the time). When AIS is interfaced with the display the data from the remote stations was processed without any/enough gatekeeping. A date string passed by a faulty AIS shore station included an invalid date derived from its (ie the remote) GPS input. Something like a February 29th in a year which should not have had one. The operating system either detected this as an error or simply could not handle it and crashed. Without disconnecting the AIS input the system could never have been restarted while the erroneous station was in range. A clear example of how data, not intended to be malicious, may disable a system from off one's own ship.

Last edited by Varley; 1st April 2019 at 14:30.. Reason: All years have a February 28th!
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  #44  
Old 1st April 2019, 18:24
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Despite all the software, sensors , roll delays etc, there is no excuse for running an engine on minimum sump capacity, be it wet or dry sump. Ships roll, some to a greater or lesser extent and shipbuilders and savvy owners would know this. Plus these things can be calculated.,
Unless things have changed in engine and and system design in the last 25 years then running the sump at the max mark, should not be a problem, or you have a poor design of engine then the sump level should not rise
(unlike many auto diesels ) but drop (but good old fashioned watchkeeping would prevent a shortage of oil), so this problem should not have happened. As was found by the Norwegian ( BOT), hence the levels were quickly rectified on the rest of the the fleet.
So in effect it was the bean counters policy that caused this, not even the Supers', but he he would carry the can , if one needed carrying.

Like most industries , as soon as bean counters or shareholders poke their nose in, then things go awry.
You hear horror stories on this forum of how ships were run by the owners and normally any owner scrimping did not run successfull ships and make good profits as they often broke down, so loosing revenue, but a line that looked after its staff , supplied spares and were good feeders and a happy staff do a good job for the company.
This may not have applied to Viking as it was a private company and Norwegians are good seaman like Britain was, but some accountant was perhaps trying to maximise profits.
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  #45  
Old 2nd April 2019, 02:09
Tony Foot Tony Foot is offline
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LO sump/service tank levels

Before my retirement I was working as C/E for the worst company I had experienced in over 41 years at sea. They ran offshore support vessels.
That Co. had a policy of keeping L/O tank levels as low as practical.
Much cheaper you see, less oil in use and less oil in storage.
And yes I had two engine failures. One when the ship rolled or pitched and the pump sucked air the engine shut down. Another when the rough seas stirred up the debris in the tank and that destroyed the L/O pump followed shortly after by the engine itself.
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  #46  
Old 2nd April 2019, 05:21
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This Viking incident reminds me of what we used to do with the lube oil on the little MV Navua with a five cylinder trunk piston Shulzer engine of 1500 HP.
The golden treacle colour of new lube does not take long to discolour and degrade once in service but our house proud second engineer, Peter Hewer, was determined to maintain the ship's main engine lube in the cleanest possible condition .
In port and at sea in flat calm conditions much of the sump tank oil was pumped up to a large holding tank situated on the forward engine room bulkhead that walled the twin P&S deep tanks and was directly above fuel and lube oil purifiers . The tank had a high wattage outflow heater
The routine was to fill the header tank from the sump then continually circulate the well heated oil through the purifier until it regained some of its golden glow. If the weather roughed up while at sea the oil was quickly lowered down to maintain a high sump level and conversely in port the header tank was filled to its max and the purifier ran unattended through the night even when on shore power in order to continually batch clean the lube.
It was surprising how clean the oil became with this treatment regime and it was a relative pleasure to climb into the crankcase that still showed its yellow coloured build paint treatment through the film of gold!
Other ships did not follow Peter's 'housekeeping ' ideas that resulted in an engine room that resembled an ice cream parlour.

Bob
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  #47  
Old 2nd April 2019, 08:47
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If all the surfers and wind surfers in the world pooled their savings only three of them could buy a ticket for an Inside Cabin on the Viking Sky.
With all due respect you obviously know little about Surfing because it can be very lucrative! A champion Surfer such as Kelly Slater for example has a net worth in excess of $20 Million.
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  #48  
Old 3rd April 2019, 17:57
Lao Pan Lao Pan is offline  
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Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
Unless things have changed in engine and and system design in the last 25 years then running the sump at the max mark, should not be a problem,...

...Like most industries , as soon as bean counters or shareholders poke their nose in, then things go awry.
One thing that has changed is the cost per ltr of Lube Oil - I am not familiar with the Sump capacities on these machines, but say you could reduce the level from 14 tonnes to 10 tonnes per machine - times 4 at about £2.50 per ltr - that would be a saving of £40,000 on oil in service.

Colour of oil is going away from that golden treacle colour - the Premium Turbine oils and Hydraulic oils that I now deal with are water white (Gas to Oil)
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  #49  
Old 3rd April 2019, 19:32
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Hmmmmm £40,000 for lub oils or £2 million drydock and repairs and other costs for a 2 day event. The oil is cheaper.
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  #50  
Old 3rd April 2019, 19:36
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With all due respect you obviously know little about Surfing because it can be very lucrative! A champion Surfer such as Kelly Slater for example has a net worth in excess of $20 Million.
Ha mcGlash you think I know fcuk nothing about surfing but you're wrong, I know fcuk all.
I do know those surfing in Lahinch have a surfboard, a VW Camper and a bit of totty. I'd nearly settle for that.
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