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  #1  
Old 2nd May 2018, 08:37
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Why were there seperate Certificates of Competency for Home Trade and Foreign Trade? What were the differences?
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  #2  
Old 2nd May 2018, 11:51
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Different exam requirements and qualifying requirements. For example, astro navigation was not a home trade requirement.
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  #3  
Old 2nd May 2018, 12:17
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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With a foreign going certificate you might end up on a "Baron" boat.
A home trade cerificate you would not!
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  #4  
Old 2nd May 2018, 12:37
Aberdonian Aberdonian is offline  
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To digress, lakercapt: On the subject of tickets, I was up for Second Mates in 58 Aberdeen with a Jim Brock who then emigrated to Canada with the firm intention of going on the Lakes. Long shot, but I wonder if you ever came across him.

Keith
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  #5  
Old 2nd May 2018, 14:10
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There is no Principles of Navigation paper requirement in Home Trade Certificates.
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  #6  
Old 2nd May 2018, 20:42
Rob Pithers Rob Pithers is offline  
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Roughly, Home Trade = in sight of land & Foreign Trade = out of sight of land.
Rob
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  #7  
Old 2nd May 2018, 23:19
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberdonian View Post
To digress, lakercapt: On the subject of tickets, I was up for Second Mates in 58 Aberdeen with a Jim Brock who then emigrated to Canada with the firm intention of going on the Lakes. Long shot, but I wonder if you ever came across him.

Keith
Sorry Keith I did not know him nor do I recollect ever meeting him and I would have haerd of him as it is a close knit group of guys.
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  #8  
Old 2nd May 2018, 23:28
lakercapt lakercapt is offline  
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Originally Posted by lakercapt View Post
With a foreign going certificate you might end up on a "Baron" boat.
A home trade cerificate you would not!
When I posted this I was being fippant when I posted this comment.

One of the most enlightening experiances I had after gaining masters F.G. was sailing on a coaster and having first hand knowledge of these mariners with the Home Trade certificates. They were outstanding at close water navigation and I was in awe of them. I was to be thankful for the time I spent there learning a facet of sailing I had only read about. It was only a few months and it stood me in good stead for the rest of my time sailling.
I would never say their qualifications were inferior, different yes.
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  #9  
Old 3rd May 2018, 10:44
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inandaship inandaship is offline  
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Sailed with one or two Skippers who never used charts it was all in their head, quite remarkable, the only time charts were used was for muggins here to see where he was going!
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  #10  
Old 3rd May 2018, 11:31
Aberdonian Aberdonian is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakercapt View Post
Sorry Keith I did not know him nor do I recollect ever meeting him and I would have haerd of him as it is a close knit group of guys.
Thanks for your response, lakercapt.
Yes, coasting seamen deserve respect for the conditions under which they ply their trade. Constantly within an often trying northern climate for one thing, but I guess that particular aspect goes for the Lakes, too....

Keith
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  #11  
Old 4th May 2018, 00:59
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I'm pretty sure that Home Trade and Foreign Going Certificates of Competency disappeared (as such) many moons ago to be replaced by the STCW Regulations
https://assets.publishing.service.go...03/MSN1856.pdf
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  #12  
Old 4th May 2018, 06:19
tiachapman tiachapman is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakercapt View Post
With a foreign going certificate you might end up on a "Baron" boat.
A home trade cerificate you would not!
free sliming courses as well
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  #13  
Old 4th May 2018, 07:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wood View Post
Different exam requirements and qualifying requirements. For example, astro navigation was not a home trade requirement.
Oh yes it was.
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  #14  
Old 4th May 2018, 08:15
George Bis George Bis is offline
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As someone who passed both HT Certificates, then 2nd. Mates I would say that they were fine for their purpose but a long way from Master HT.
GSK, Chartwork and Practical Nav. were about the standard of 2nd.Mates but there was no Met. Physics and Maths.
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  #15  
Old 4th May 2018, 09:01
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#9

"Skippers who never used charts."

Qualifications in pilotage were mandatory for pilots, wherever compulsory pilotage was imposed, several centuries before mandatory qualification was required of other mariners. In the early 19th century, the pilotage authority at Liverpool was appointed to conduct the new Board of Trade examinations. My g-g-grandfather was one of the first to hold a Board of Trade Certificate of any kind.

I remember being taught, "Reading a chart is all very well, but in pilotage even that is not good enough; because there simply isn't the time available. In pilotage, you have to know it in your head."

As to WHY there might be different kinds of certification/qualification/licence, the reason is that different voyages have different objectives, destinations, distances and hazards to be met on passage. Distance alone is not the discerning factor, although it is obviously a very important one, with geographically vast differences involved. Insurers point regularly to the high number of casualties which occur in local pilotage.

The qualifications of a Master (FG) were very different from my own in pilotage, with merely a Mate (HT) certificate .

Last edited by Barrie Youde; 4th May 2018 at 09:05..
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  #16  
Old 4th May 2018, 10:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wood View Post
Different exam requirements and qualifying requirements. For example, astro navigation was not a home trade requirement.
Hello Ken, I am not sure if there was any requirement for astro navigation for mates h/t. but, when I gained my masters h/t. 50 years ago, there was no K.O.P. but, for Practical Navigation, the requirements were : Amplitudes, Azimuths, Lat. by meridian alt. Posn. line + lat. by ex meridian alt. and Long by Chrom. including various visits to the Planetarium for astronomy. Practical Navigation was a much simpler paper than those for foreign going, I think it was considered by most to be the least feared of all the papers for Master H/T. I struggled more with things like Stability. Many, including myself, spent time as master outside H/T. limits on dispensation and on foreign flag vessels. Bruce.
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  #17  
Old 4th May 2018, 12:12
George Bis George Bis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post
#9

"Skippers who never used charts."

Qualifications in pilotage were mandatory for pilots, wherever compulsory pilotage was imposed, several centuries before mandatory qualification was required of other mariners. In the early 19th century, the pilotage authority at Liverpool was appointed to conduct the new Board of Trade examinations. My g-g-grandfather was one of the first to hold a Board of Trade Certificate of any kind.

I remember being taught, "Reading a chart is all very well, but in pilotage even that is not good enough; because there simply isn't the time available. In pilotage, you have to know it in your head."

As to WHY there might be different kinds of certification/qualification/licence, the reason is that different voyages have different objectives, destinations, distances and hazards to be met on passage. Distance alone is not the discerning factor, although it is obviously a very important one, with geographically vast differences involved. Insurers point regularly to the high number of casualties which occur in local pilotage.

The qualifications of a Master (FG) were very different from my own in pilotage, with merely a Mate (HT) certificate .
I believe that some ship Masters were qualified for Pilotage Exemption in the Mersey. What did this involve?
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  #18  
Old 4th May 2018, 13:27
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#17

In recent years, standards in that requirement have been reduced by the Marine Navigation Act of 2012. Where once the first requirement for a pilotage exemption certificate (PEC) was that the applicant should be "the bona fide master or mate" of a particular ship, the requirement now is that he should be merely "a deck officer". (May God help us.)

I've never known the exact level of experience required by an applicant (i.e. the specific number of passages in and out of the port) but it remains the case that the PEC can apply only to a ship or ships which are named on the certificate; and that the examination for pilotage-exemption in respect of those ships must not exceed, in its degree of detail, the examination for a pilot's licence for the same ship. These provisions are a matter of statute law, under the Pilotage Act 1987.

It was also a requirement (at least until 1988) that the holder of a PEC must attend at the Pilot Office in Liverpool and sign an Attenance Book, at least once every three months, to confirm his familiarity with recent surveys etc. Whether that might still apply, I do not know.

Last edited by Barrie Youde; 4th May 2018 at 13:44..
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  #19  
Old 8th May 2018, 06:00
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Coming from a seafaring family and having listened to anecdotes over the years from deep water and not so deep water sailors I am reminded of the following: When a foreign going captain asked the home trade captain what did he do when losing sight of land? To which he replied. "The same as you do when you sight it."
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  #20  
Old 8th May 2018, 06:48
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From experience, Master's with Home Trade Certificates were generally superb ship handlers due in part to the number of short trips and the amount of berthings and unberthings they did and the fact that before the changes to the pilotage act alluded to by Barrie, they did their own pilotage which was encouraged by owners on a cost basis. One little story from the very distant pass. Some of the Liverpool pilots had qualified as Pilot apprentices and only sailed on ships to achieve the sea time necessary to get 2nd Mates. No names no pack drill, but I remember being a very young and inexperienced 3rd mate on a Chemical tanker proceeding up the Mersey towards the Eastham locks and the Manchester Ship Canal. As we approached the Bromborough buoy, the old man pipes up with, " Thank you sir, I will take her now", and as usual he pops her in the lock in such a way that you could have used eggs for fenders. He was a good soul who I learned lots from and have tried to pass the same lessons on when I was master myself, so I asked him why he took over for entering the locks and he said, " well son, all pilots should be respected as they all have something to offer but in this business, there are ship handlers and sh** handlers, I will leave it to your imagination to work out which one he was".
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  #21  
Old 8th May 2018, 07:30
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#20

Quite right in all respects. The holding of a paper qualification is no guarantee of perfection in anybody and there were (and no doubt still are) many coastal shipmasters who prefer to do their own ship-handling.
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  #22  
Old 8th May 2018, 10:12
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Whilst that cannot be anything but true, Barrie, I would remark that when faced with a choice between exclusively trade trained or fresh faced and educated I would put my money on the latter. Maybe not for an immediate return but very quickly. Providing always that the spirit is willing.

On my first trip E/O on Norvegia Team a plumbing colleague joked (as he had paper too) "First we have paper Engineers, now we have paper Leckies too!"
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  #23  
Old 8th May 2018, 10:31
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#22

I'll buy that, too!

As to the matter of pilotage, I would point out also that where pilotage is compulsory it is not the pilot who imposes the compulsion.

Laws and the administration thereof are two very different things. There comes a point where we all have to address the proper course of action to be taken in any circumstances.
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  #24  
Old 8th May 2018, 12:53
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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An interesting case arose at the Forth a few years ago. Aboard a ship liable to compulsory pilotage the master, on approaching the lock at Grangemouth inward bound, elected to relieve the pilot of the conduct of the ship. The ship, then under the conduct of the master, caused substantial damage when entering the lock.

The pilot was then disciplined for his failure to report immediately by VHF (i.e well before the damage was caused) that the ship was no longer under pilotage; and lost his licence (or authorisation as it is now called).

I acted in defence of the pilot. There were other aspects to the case, all of which were answerable satisfactorily - but the point which was unanswerable was that the pilot had not reported immediately the master's breach of law.

The master got away Scot-free (apart from, presumably, having to meet his civil liability for the damage caused).
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Old 8th May 2018, 14:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post
#17

In recent years, standards in that requirement have been reduced by the Marine Navigation Act of 2012. Where once the first requirement for a pilotage exemption certificate (PEC) was that the applicant should be "the bona fide master or mate" of a particular ship, the requirement now is that he should be merely "a deck officer". (May God help us.)

I've never known the exact level of experience required by an applicant (i.e. the specific number of passages in and out of the port) but it remains the case that the PEC can apply only to a ship or ships which are named on the certificate; and that the examination for pilotage-exemption in respect of those ships must not exceed, in its degree of detail, the examination for a pilot's licence for the same ship. These provisions are a matter of statute law, under the Pilotage Act 1987.

It was also a requirement (at least until 1988) that the holder of a PEC must attend at the Pilot Office in Liverpool and sign an Attenance Book, at least once every three months, to confirm his familiarity with recent surveys etc. Whether that might still apply, I do not know.
In the 1970's the requirement by Trinity House was 12 calls in a calendar year to the relevant district that had issued the PEC. As the PEC's were issued annually, missing the required number of visits meant resitting the examination by the local board of examiners. As Barrie states, the Certificate could only be issued to the named vessel and named Master of that vessel.
(In the Western Lady fleet of converted Fairmile launches, a certificated master could take any of the vessels as they were all named on his certificate. My late Dad held his certificate originally for Kiloran II, then the Western Ladies, and also for the Pride of Paignton. I believe he was the only person to hold PEC's for all the Fairmiles operating in Torbay at that time.)
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