Blue Funnel Name Changes - Ships Nostalgia
11:14

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Blue Funnel Name Changes

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 21st January 2019, 07:55
R651400's Avatar
R651400 R651400 is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,787
Blue Funnel Name Changes

SN thread on WW2 Victory class Talthybius brings up a question that's intrigued me for many a year ie why all the chopping and changing of AH & Co ships and names between its various associated companies?
Talthybius...Launched 1944 as Salina Victory bought by AH & Co to be renamed Polydorus and run by Dutch subsidiary NMSO then reverting to Ocean SS and renamed Talthybius later transferred to ED's and on her final journey to Taiwan breakers transferred to Glen Line when calling at the port of Durban.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st January 2019, 11:08
tiachapman tiachapman is offline  
Senior Member
Active: 1954 - 1981
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,651
tax fiddle
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st January 2019, 17:42
Dave McGouldrick Dave McGouldrick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachapman View Post
tax fiddle
Oh My Goodness!!
The very idea that a reputable British shipping company would be involved as something as sordid as a tax fiddle.

Surely it would be known as something like consolidation of amounts payable on final amortization of physical assets.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st January 2019, 19:03
BillH BillH is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,606
Basically one company making a loss would sell a vessel to one making a profit so the money moved around, avoiding tax as it was the profitable company re-investing in their business. "Skilful" accountancy!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st January 2019, 19:37
R651400's Avatar
R651400 R651400 is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,787
During my time and though it would be hard to tell between in-house companies China Mutual and Ocean SS I cannot remember any switching but why in a foreign port from BF to Glen Line halfway thru the ship's final voyage to the knackers.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st January 2019, 19:55
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,755
#5

Why not?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22nd January 2019, 05:17
R651400's Avatar
R651400 R651400 is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,787
My only thoughts are before the Taiwan breakers Talthybius did a normal Far East cargo run that may have required a change from ED's to Glen Line.
If not and unlike "Ile de France" for sentimental reason can anyone actually give a tangible explanation for the change or elaborate on tax-fiddling/voyage profit on any final run to a breaker.

Last edited by R651400; 22nd January 2019 at 05:53.. Reason: Amended first sentence.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd January 2019, 19:56
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,860
I believe that usually the need for a name change for the final voyage to the scrapyard was that the name was needed for a new build. This was not the case with Talthybius, as there was never another ship of that name.
Polydorus was a name consistently associated with the Dutch arm of Blue Flue, so once the Polydorus was transferred to the UK flag, the name would have to be changed.
__________________
"Life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd January 2019, 22:44
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,821
I know someone posted up a photo of the name plate for "Cyclops" recently, how does that go on when the ship changes names?
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23rd January 2019, 03:47
richardwakeley's Avatar
richardwakeley richardwakeley is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Electrician
Active: 1970 - 1997
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 794
Another reason for name changes on scrap voyages is that sometimes the ship was already sold to the scrapyard when it made the delivery voyage. Rhexenor and Stentor went from Singapore to Kaohsiung as Hexeno and Tento. In my second company, Jardines, I sailed on 'Borg' from Norway to Kaohsiung, the scrapyard having engaged us to deliver the ex 'Berge Borg' VLCC.
Quite a few of the Blue Funnel 'A' class were renamed in the 70s to give up the names for a series of bulk carriers.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 23rd January 2019, 09:55
R651400's Avatar
R651400 R651400 is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,787
Thanks all for the input and on reflection I erred #5 as my first deep-sea the lovely old Melampus/GMBZ had served most of her life with NMSO and another golden oldie Ajax/GJXM after years on the De-la-Rama run did one trip to Oz (via the Cape) then transferred to Glen Line as Glenlochy.
For what it's worth my own theory on AH & Co in-house swapping was down to the various cargo conferences that existed and I don't swallow tax-fiddling or Blue Funnel (Ocean SS/China Mutual) and Glen Line plus NMSO ever being unprofitable until of course later with the evaporation of quality management.

The Greeks were past masters at buying up ships then filling them to the gunwales with scrap for the final voyage to the knackers and frequently they didn't follow thru and returned the ship to further trading.

CGT's (French Line) favorita ss "Ile de France" was bought by Japanese breakers and renamed Furanzu Maru
Due to the national affection for the I-d-F I understand she was allowed to leave Le Havre for the last time under her original name and flying the French tricolor. Later I-d-F became the star ss Claridon in the film "Last Voyage" and the French prudently sued the producers to ensure the name "Ile de France" and CGT funnel colours would not be used in the film.

Last edited by R651400; 23rd January 2019 at 09:57..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 23rd January 2019, 19:06
Samsette's Avatar
Samsette Samsette is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John View Post
I know someone posted up a photo of the name plate for "Cyclops" recently, how does that go on when the ship changes names?
Do you mean the builders plate, situated below the bridge? The Ubena kept hers, after being renamed to Empire Ken.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23rd January 2019, 23:00
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,821
That's it. I suppose you wouldn't chisel it off.
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25th January 2019, 04:00
Geoff Rae's Avatar
Geoff Rae Geoff Rae is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 9
Ocean Group ship names

# 11.
You are quite correct as to conference requirements as ED were not members of the Far East Conference (FEFC), but Glen (and Shire) were. When Holts purchased competing lines, such as China Mutual, Glen and Shire they also bought the relevant Conference membership seats (and votes). To maintain that status, Blue Funnel ships switched ownership between Ocean Steam Ship and China Mutual with no change of name or Port of Registry. Ships going to Glen/Shire changed ownership, name and funnel colour, but precious little else and frequently changed back again to meet the requirements of trade! In most cases Port of Registry remained as Liverpool, except for a few early 1960 newbuilds which were registered in London.

The cases of the aged Stentor and Rhexenor were a little different as the two ships were being immediately replaced by M-class vessels and trade wanted to retain the familiar names in the Straits/E.Australian service. A simple, but rather inglorious, method of changing the names, with a black laden paint brush!

One other point, regarding ships going for demolition. Holts insisted on the main engines being permanently disabled on arrival at the scrapyard. For motorships, mostly B&W powered, the aftermost crankweb was cut such that the shrink fit cracked. In steamships, a bar of steel was placed in the gear case and the engine turned slowly on steam until a rather raucus noise came from the gears. No further trading for these ships! Mind you the scrapyards loved the ships because of all the cupro-nickel pipework!

Last edited by Geoff Rae; 25th January 2019 at 05:07..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 25th January 2019, 21:10
gordonarfur gordonarfur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 44
The most likely reason why 'blue flu" changed their names is that nobody could ever spell or pronounce the bloody things properly. Why they did,nt follow Federal or Bibby lines and give their ships good old English names is beyond me.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 25th January 2019, 22:41
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,821
The names rang of the the ethos of the company. Who wouldn't want to sail on Jason, Ajax, Priam.

Also, pronunciation and spelling was a doddle for the men of the Welsh Navy.
The crew of the "llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysili ogogogoch" deserted and joined the Ixion.
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 27th January 2019, 03:26
gordonarfur gordonarfur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 44
I did,nt know that Taffies went to sea? never saw or heard one while I was in the MN. Barry Island does not qualify as deep sea!!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 27th January 2019, 13:23
DontheDiver DontheDiver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 8
Loved your post. My welsh is not that good so I could not translate it but I do know it is to do with St Mary's church if I remember correctly.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 27th January 2019, 13:24
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,821
http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/blue_funne...unnel_home.htm

A really good site about the Welsh Navy.
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 1st February 2019, 02:22
gordonarfur gordonarfur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 44
Penarth to Weston Super Mare on a Campbells paddle steamer does not constitute foreign going therefore how can the taffies talk about a welsh navy ?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 1st February 2019, 09:38
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordonarfur View Post
Penarth to Weston Super Mare on a Campbells paddle steamer does not constitute foreign going therefore how can the taffies talk about a welsh navy ?
Blue Flue was indeed the Welsh Navy. I never sailed in one without at least two or three Welshmen on deck. I was in one where apart from me, the lampy and the bosun, every member of the deck crowd came from the Anglesey village of Amlwych. All good seamen, if a bit clannish.
Pat
__________________
"Life is a waste of time, and time is a waste of life. Get wasted all the time, and you'll have the time of your life!"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 1st February 2019, 11:16
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,755
In Blue Flue's ss Jason in 1959/60 we had at least thirteen native Welsh-speakers, one of whom was the Master, Captain John Gould.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 1st February 2019, 12:54
holland25 holland25 is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Radio Officer
Active: 1956 - 1970
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,058
Ref the Welsh navy, I wonder if somebody is having somebody on? My boss on the Alcinous came from Rhyl.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 1st February 2019, 15:30
Farmer John's Avatar
Farmer John Farmer John is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by holland25 View Post
I wonder if somebody is having somebody on?
It has been known.
__________________
"The kitten and the snail got off the bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 1st February 2019, 17:58
Swansea Jack Swansea Jack is offline
Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Purser
Active: 1961 - 1972
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 4
From a new member of only a few days-- Yes I was with Elders, 1961 - 1967, born in Llandrindod Wells, now live in Swansea. Plenty of Welsh boys in the Welsh MN.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blue Funnel Photographs. Capt.John Bax. Ret. Blue Funnel Line 71 17th November 2013 14:08
Star Cruises Ltd changes its name fred henderson News and Views from the Shipping World 0 20th November 2009 13:55
Swire ship involved in Australia's worst pollution accident changes name shamrock News and Views from the Shipping World 0 10th July 2009 08:17
Blue Funnel Models R651400 Blue Funnel Line 0 5th August 2005 13:11



Support SN


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.