Wheel house mechanisms - Page 2 - Ships Nostalgia
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  #26  
Old 4th November 2019, 19:12
sidnik77 sidnik77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen J. Card View Post
History of the ship Christoforos

(THOMAS HARDIE)

The ship with its 15 crew members left the port of Volos, loaded with 2.600 tons of concrete, early in the morning of the 2nd of October 1983 for the port of Piraeus and final destination Algeria. The weather conditions were good but during the evening became overcast with rains and strong North gales. In the evening the ship had a 7 degrees list to the right which continued to increase as the time was passing by. Due to these conditions, while being 12 nautical miles north of the islet Pontikonisi, the ship changed course for a safe anchor, which with the suggestion of the fishing vessel Giannakis was Panormos in Skopelos island. When it finally arrived in Panormos, at about 16.00 of the 2nd of October 1983 the waves had broken one of the portholes of the bridge. As a result the bridge had flooded and the list on the left had increased in 17 degrees while there was influx of water in the hold No1. The ballast pump and a portable one were used to pump the water but the level of the water in the hold was not lowering. At about 22.00 the list of the ship increased that much that the right gunwale was in the water. The captain contacted the ship owners and the operations chamber of the Ministry of commercial shipping, operations chamber gave order to abandon the ship, while himself, the second lieutenant and a boatswain remained on the ship, with the help of the vessel Giannakis, checked the depths in Panormos to founder the ship. But there where many variations in depth so there was the fear that the ship could split in two. On the 3rd of October 1983 the tries to save the ship were futile so the captain gave order to abandon the ship, boarding on Giannakis vessel.
Christoforos sank in an upright position at about 05.30, in a depth of 43 meters [1].
Also the coast guard captain who went on board, before the ship sunk, told me that the crew wanted to abandon the ship, but the captain was not giving the order. The captain of the ship told to the coast guard that he was going to founder the ship on the near beach.
If you go to this little cove, it's majestic, i think it would have been a great disaster to have this beast foundered.
Also thank god it was a diesel ship and not fuel oil one, cause there would have been a disaster for this majestic place.
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  #27  
Old 4th November 2019, 19:49
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#19

Please, no apologies!

The matter now seems to be confused by Stephen's reference to Titanic. The wreck shown appears to be much more modern than Titanic; and the wreck of Christoforos in 1983 (as reported by Sidnik, the original enquirer) seems to be far more relevant.

Perhaps Item 1 is not a Sperry gyro-repeater. But it certainly looks like a gyro repeater; and there were numerous other makes.
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  #28  
Old 4th November 2019, 21:02
sidnik77 sidnik77 is offline
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Well,
in the hull specification contract i can read,
"Siemens electric helm indicator to be fitted on the bridge bulwark, tachometer to be fitted on the bridge, docking telegraph positioned on port side of E.R. telegraph"
maybe this can help?
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  #29  
Old 4th November 2019, 21:39
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#28

Thank you, Sidnik.

Yes, it does help.

Whatever item 1 might be, it is plainly not fitted on the bridge bulwark, which non-placement casts further doubt on its identification as a helm indicator.
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  #30  
Old 4th November 2019, 21:47
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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May God bless Wikipedia, which tells us that the first gyrocompass for a commercial vessel was developed by C.Plath & Co (a name which I had long forgotten) in 1913. This seems to rule out any suggestion that Titanic might have had a gyro compass.

Perhaps Item 1 as shown is a C. Plath gyro-repeater? Merely a suggestion.
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  #31  
Old 4th November 2019, 22:56
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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This 'thing' is practically the same set up as Titanic. Wheel with shaft running under the binnacle or to the side of it, to the telemotor. The top would be the rudder indicator. Might not be anything at all. The indicator might have fall off over the years. See the Titanic.

A gyro repeater at Position 1 would be quite useless. You would have to look over the binnacle to see the repeater and if the binnacle cover was on, as it would be at night, it would be useless. Even from early years the gyro repeater could be vertically mounted, like most other ships.

Could it be a horizontal gyro repeater to use for taking bearing? Well, this thing appears to be no higher that 36 inches. How do you take bearings from this repeater when you could not see anything, because the bridge dodger is higher. See photos of the THOMAS HARDIE. The wheelhouse is very low but the dodger appears to be normal height... and more than the top of the telemotor pedestal.

Stephen

Last edited by Stephen J. Card; 4th November 2019 at 23:07..
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  #32  
Old 4th November 2019, 23:03
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#31

Meaning?
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  #33  
Old 4th November 2019, 23:27
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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It would not be a gyro repeater. In that position and height it would be of no use. It is too low to see anything over the bridge window sill. Item 1 is simply the telemotor and might, or might not have a rudder indicator on top. Wheelhouse gyro repeaters to be used for taking bearing is usually at about 4ft 6 inches height to see through the windows. Navy does on at that height and on the Centreline but then their wheel is somewhere else!

Stephen
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File Type: jpg pic_collier-vessel THOMAS HARDIE.jpg (21.2 KB, 13 views)
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  #34  
Old 4th November 2019, 23:38
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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All points noted, Stephen - but the bridge windows are not shown, with height therefore unknown.

I agree that it does look a bit low.
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  #35  
Old 5th November 2019, 00:38
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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The flattie I served on (50's/60's) never had a gyro, nor did any of the other Stevie Clarkes at that time as most were on regular runs and all had Decca Navigators (very useful). On the flatties a gyro in the wheelhouse for taking bearings would be useless when in ballast and virtually useless when loaded because of all the internal obstructions (window frames, Kent clear view screens, radar pedestal etc). On a flattie in ballast all you could see was the foc'le head deck because of the way you had to trim them to even half submerge the screw, The only way you could see right ahead was from the extremity of the bridge wings, loaded they were like submarines even with just a hint of inclement weather
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  #36  
Old 5th November 2019, 00:40
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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Barrie,

Here a couple of photos of T. Hardie. 'Low' is an understatement!

I wonder how they could so anything in the wheelhouse. If you were over 5' 06", don't bother apply for a job!

The bulwarks on the wheelhouse seem 'normal'. But I don't think No. 1 was a gyro repeater. Looking at gyro repeaters for horizontal use are mounted in gimbals and the bracket for holding is usually open, not enclosed like in the original photo. Note the dodger on the bridge in front of the wheelhouse windows... fold down! Looks worse!

Stephen
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File Type: jpg Thomas Hardie-01.jpg (88.8 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Thomas Hardie-02.jpg (80.7 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by Stephen J. Card; 5th November 2019 at 00:44..
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  #37  
Old 5th November 2019, 08:10
sidnik77 sidnik77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaman38 View Post
The flattie I served on (50's/60's) never had a gyro, nor did any of the other Stevie Clarkes at that time as most were on regular runs and all had Decca Navigators (very useful). On the flatties a gyro in the wheelhouse for taking bearings would be useless when in ballast and virtually useless when loaded because of all the internal obstructions (window frames, Kent clear view screens, radar pedestal etc). On a flattie in ballast all you could see was the foc'le head deck because of the way you had to trim them to even half submerge the screw, The only way you could see right ahead was from the extremity of the bridge wings, loaded they were like submarines even with just a hint of inclement weather
The Decca navigator is mentioned on the contract,
we have seen that the original general arrangement is not identical with the current ship configuration.
Back then there was a telegraph in the bridge, which was quite cramped,
and a repeater right in front of it on the "balcony" and a compass. Now the bridge occupies the whole deck length and it has a roof. There are two "ears" on left and right, probably for better navigating the ship in harbour, with a telegraph on each of them.
You can see the "ears" here with the telegraphs
http://labtop.topo.auth.gr/wreckhist...s/#gallery-9-3
and here
http://labtop.topo.auth.gr/wreckhist...s/#gallery-9-7
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  #38  
Old 5th November 2019, 08:39
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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I agree with all of the points raised which suggest that Item 1 is unlikely to be a gyro-repeater, but it still looks like one. If I remember correctly, gimbals would often be found inside the casing which we are looking at.

If both gyro-repeater and helm-indicator are ruled out (for different reasons, all of which are sound) then the purpose of Item 1 remains a mystery. There is always the possibility (even if remote) that Item 1 (whaterver it might be) could have been fitted to the ship after her days as a U.K. flattie had come to an end.
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  #39  
Old 5th November 2019, 15:20
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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Here is a telemotor. It shows the same or very similar of the telemotor on THOMAS HARDIE.

It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing' or because the binnacle hides the telemotor, the rudder indicator may have been a wall mounted unit.
The General Arrangement drawing shows the HARDIE as the wheel with shaft running past the binnacle to the telemotor.

Stephen
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File Type: jpg imagesDG06FZ4D telemotor.jpg (10.3 KB, 96 views)

Last edited by Stephen J. Card; 5th November 2019 at 15:33..
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  #40  
Old 5th November 2019, 15:32
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howardang howardang is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen J. Card View Post
Here is a telemotor. It shows the same or very similar of the telemotor on THOMAS HARDIE.

It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing' or because the binnacle hides the telemotor, the rudder indicator may have been a wall mounted unit.

Stephen
Hello Stephen

The drawing you mention seems to be missing, but you have beaten me to it about the oil reservoir tank. I remember as a cadet filling up the tank when required as part of bridge cleaning duties.

Sorry Stephen - the edits seem to have crossed in the ether and I now see the photo.

Howard
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  #41  
Old 5th November 2019, 17:37
seaman38 seaman38 is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen J. Card View Post

It definitely is the telemotor and the 'bowl at top is simply the topping up tank for the hydraulic oil. The photo shows the attached rudder indicator. It is obviously 'missing'
.

Stephen
The 'rudder indicator' in the photo is not actually a rudder indicator it is an indicator to show how far in degrees the wheel is from amidships, the indicator usually worked by a worm gear fitted to the wheel shaft, the rudder indicator (when fitted) was normally electric and on the for'd bulkhead of the wheelhouse in line of sight of the QM. Depending upon how old the Master or Pilot was the orders normally given were ' ten degrees of helm quartermaster' (master) or '10 degrees of rudder quartermaster (pilot)

I found that Masters normally used 'helm' as they knew their ship and Pilots usually used 'rudder' as every ship was different and the pilot normally only had a sight line to the indicator on the bulkhead and not the wheel indicator in front of the helmsman as he traversed backwards and forwards (P-S and S-P)in the wheelhouse
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  #42  
Old 5th November 2019, 18:09
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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I remember orders from Master, OOW or Pilot varied, depending what we were actually doing.

If the order is Port Ten or Starboard 5 etc might well be rudder. If you said 'Easy' or 'Nothing to Port' would be helm orders.

As far as 'indication' it would be always Rudder, not wheel. Most modern vessels, well, even in the last 50 years, the indicator is for the Rudder, not the helm. If you are leaving a port and you test the steering you check midships, hard port, hard starboard might be back and forth. You would be watching the rudder movements not wheel movement. When the steering is electric it might be 'electric hand', non follow up controllers etc. That said there is usually a 'hard' indication from 'electric hand' from the wheel itself.

Stephen
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  #43  
Old 5th November 2019, 19:18
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kewl dude kewl dude is offline  
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The US Flag ships I sailed both on the Great Lakes and offshore, the deck officer of the watch would telephone the engine room and say "Test Gear".

The watch engineer would walk to the steering gear room and call the bridge from the phone there. The mate would swing the rudder all the way to one side or the other then swing it all the way to the opposite end while the engineer observed.

Greg Hayden
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  #44  
Old 5th November 2019, 19:35
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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Originally Posted by kewl dude View Post
The US Flag ships I sailed both on the Great Lakes and offshore, the deck officer of the watch would telephone the engine room and say "Test Gear".

The watch engineer would walk to the steering gear room and call the bridge from the phone there. The mate would swing the rudder all the way to one side or the other then swing it all the way to the opposite end while the engineer observed.

Greg Hayden
Same here. Difference between then and today is the paperwork!

In SEVONIA TEAM... 100,000 dwt OBO you didn't need to be tell if the rudder was moved. The whole superstructure swayed and back with the force of the rudder movement... hard over and back. First time I tested the gear I thought I had broken something!
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  #45  
Old 5th November 2019, 19:44
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howardang View Post
Hello Stephen

The drawing you mention seems to be missing, but you have beaten me to it about the oil reservoir tank. I remember as a cadet filling up the tank when required as part of bridge cleaning duties.

Sorry Stephen - the edits seem to have crossed in the ether and I now see the photo.

Howard

Howard, I think it works now.

Stephen
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File Type: jpg telemotor 123.jpg (13.5 KB, 30 views)
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  #46  
Old 22nd November 2019, 08:53
Engine Serang Engine Serang is offline  
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Reminds me of Seconds General EK. Hard a Port.
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  #47  
Old 22nd November 2019, 10:21
OilJiver OilJiver is offline  
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Aye aye Mr Harbottle.
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