Clan macdougall 1904 - Ships Nostalgia
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Clan macdougall 1904

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  #1  
Old 4th May 2018, 21:23
james smith james smith is offline  
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Clan macdougall 1904

I am trying to convince the CWGC that the 33 guys who were lost when this ship was torpedoed and sunk on 15th March 1918 WERE Merchant Seafarers as the only name they list is that of the Master. They want proof that the remainder were Mercantile Marine personnel as they seem to think they were all passengers!!! Any ideas as to where I could possibly obtain a list of names and ranks to supply to the CWGC so that they can be remembered with pride on listings and memorials. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 4th May 2018, 23:59
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Hugh MacLean Hugh MacLean is offline
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Hello James,
I have some experience in dealing with the CWGC and MN casualties. But more importantly I know people that have more experience dealing with them and a proven track record.
You are correct that the CWGC require proof positive by means of primary records. We need the 1918 crew agreement [part of ships official logbook]. The log book would have been lost with the ship and the shore copy used to determine a list of casualties. There appears to be no surviving crew agreement at the National Archives Kew but I do see one held at the MHA Canada.
I will be away till tomorrow but will pick up on this when I get home unless anyone else can help.
Regards
Hugh
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  #3  
Old 6th May 2018, 13:49
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Hugh MacLean Hugh MacLean is offline
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James,

In the first instance I would advise you contact the MHA in Canada contact details below with a view to obtaining the last crew agreement for ss CLAN MACDOUGALL official number 119184. That should give details of the other 32 people who lost their lives and their position aboard the ship. The CWGC are governed by a very strict ruleset when dealing with MN casualties and the onus is on us to prove [and supply the proof] that the other 32 members where actually sailing as crew. We only know that Captain Henry Stalker Southward [master] is the only member of the crew commemorated - very strange and I can find no mention of any other people aboard that lost their lives. Do you have any names of the so called passengers?

Try emailing them first.

Maritime History Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NL
A1C 5S7

Email: [email protected]

Regards
Hugh
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  #4  
Old 9th May 2018, 15:23
BillH BillH is offline
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The following from my CD Book on the Clan Line. War service details were extracted from WW1 Service Lists. Her loss detail came from a book on WW1 War Losses by Alan J Tennant

CLAN MACDOUGALL (1st of name) (1904 - 1918) "turretdeck steamship".
O.N. 119184. 4,710g. 2,976n. 385.2 x 50.1 x 26.3 feet.
T.3-cyl. (27˝", 45˝"& 75"x 54") by the shipbuilder. 413 NHP.
12.10.1904: Launched by Wm. Doxford & Sons Ltd., Sunderland (Yard No. 325), for The Clan Line Steamers Ltd., (Cayzer, Irvine & Company, managers).
18.11.1904: Registered at Glasgow.
12.1904: Completed.
12.12.1904: Sold to Sir Charles W Cayzer, David Rennie and James MacKenzie, (same managers).
1.7.1907: Managers restyled as Cayzer, Irvine & Company Ltd.
1913: Sold to The Clan Line Steamers Ltd, (same managers).
23.2.1917 until 26.3.1917: Wheat from America, for the Royal Commission.
27.3.1917 until 23.4.1917: Collier Transport No. 1541.
24.4.1917 until 10.6.1917: Wheat from America or Canada, for the Royal Commission.
11.6.1917 until 16.7.1917: Collier Transport No. 1541.
17.7.1917 until 18.10.1917: Sugar from Cuba.
19.10.1917 until 23.1.1918: Wheat from Canada, for the Royal Commission.
24.1.1918 until 9.3.1918: Collier Transport No. 1541.
10.3.1918 until 15.3.1918: Enroute to load sugar, at Cuba.
15.3.1918: Whilst on a ballast voyage from Naples to Bizerta, was sunk with a torpedo by the German submarine UB 49, in a position 60 miles S. E. by E.˝ E. from Cape Carbonara, Sardinia.
Her master and 32 crew were lost.

Last edited by BillH; 9th May 2018 at 15:27..
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  #5  
Old 11th May 2018, 19:20
james smith james smith is offline  
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Clan macdougall 1904

For Hugh Maclean and BillH:

Thanks guys for your replies to my query for which I am most grateful. I'd managed to get the War record from the WW1 Service Lists, I have a copy of the Clan Line History and also the book by Tennant so it was nice to have other folk coming up with the same results. Hugh, I am most grateful to you for the tip concerning the MHA in Newfoundland as I now believe that is where the bulk of surviving Clan Line Records are deposited. I will email them and see what help they can give me regarding some sort of Crew List as hopefully that will persuade the CWGC that I am not talking out of my hat! It would just be great to give the guys who lost their lives the recognition they so deserve.

Thank you both again for your assistance.

James
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