USS FITZGERALD/ACX CRYSTAL collision (merged threads) - Page 11 - Ships Nostalgia
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USS FITZGERALD/ACX CRYSTAL collision (merged threads)

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  #251  
Old 6th December 2017, 19:25
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Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post

Damned weird country ( I know , I lived their for 9 years and couldn't leave fast enough).
I wondered what all the celebrating was about.
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  #252  
Old 8th December 2017, 13:50
callpor callpor is offline   SN Supporter
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What a sad state of affairs? Ex USN personnel must be horrified and disgusted by the incompetence demonstrated over the past several years by those responsible for administration of their Navy, which has been demonstrated by the tragic incidents that have occurred over the last 18 months. Lets hope the current reviews will result in some effective corrective action being taken to reverse these declines and perhaps unload some of the incompetent leadership that caused it.
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  #253  
Old 8th December 2017, 18:54
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What a sad state of affairs? Ex USN personnel must be horrified and disgusted by the incompetence demonstrated over the past several years by those responsible for administration of their Navy, which has been demonstrated by the tragic incidents that have occurred over the last 18 months. Lets hope the current reviews will result in some effective corrective action being taken to reverse these declines and perhaps unload some of the incompetent leadership that caused it.
Did the Affirmative Action policies play any part in decreeing incompetence as a leadership characteristic?
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  #254  
Old 8th December 2017, 19:56
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Did the Affirmative Action policies play any part in decreeing incompetence as a leadership characteristic?
Perhaps sames rules as CinC.
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  #255  
Old 8th December 2017, 23:50
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Perhaps sames rules as CinC.
That man is breaking all the rules and changing those he cannot break.
Fortunately, he did not choose to serve at sea.
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  #256  
Old 9th May 2018, 15:18
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Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
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Unbelievable!!!!!!

USS Fitzgerald officer pleads guilty in collision that killed 7 sailors
Samuel Chamberlain 1 hr ago

Volcanic gases prompt door-to-door evacuation in Hawaii

Duke exec’s complaint about rap song gets two employees fired

Who Were the Seven U.S. Sailors Who Died in the USS Fitzgerald Crash? Here Are Their Names and Stories
A junior officer on the destroyer USS Fitzgerald has pleaded guilty to a dereliction of duty charge in connection with a collision that killed seven sailors last year, the Navy announced Tuesday.

Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock will forfeit a half-month’s pay for three months and receive a punitive letter as punishment, according to a Navy statement.
“Our Sailors personify honor, courage, and commitment,” the statement read, in part. “The Navy will not accept complacency, negligence, or other behaviors contrary to its core values.”
According to the Navy Times, Coppock was serving as officer at the deck at the time the Fitzgerald struck a commercial ship off the coast of Japan early on the morning of June 17. She was accused of failing to follow the commanding officer’s standing orders and international navigation rules.
In August, the Navy announced that the Fitzgerald’s commanding officer, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, would be removed from duty, along with the ship’s second-in-command and the top senior enlisted sailor.
NAVY FAULTS US WARSHIPS IN SUMMER PACIFIC COLLISIONS THAT KILLED 17 SAILORS
A Navy report released in November found that the Fitzgerald was at fault for the collision.
“In the 30 minutes leading up to the collision, neither Fitzgerald nor [the commercial ship] Crystal took such action to reduce the risk of collision until approximately one minute prior to the collision,” the report said.
The report added that Fitzgerald’s officer of the deck, now identified as Coppock, “intended to take no action” in the minutes leading up to the collision until realizing it was “too late.”
“The Officer of the Deck, the person responsible for safe navigation of the ship, exhibited poor seamanship by failing to maneuver as required, failing to sound the danger signal and failing to attempt to contact CRYSTAL on Bridge to Bridge radio. In addition, the Officer of the Deck did not call the Commanding Officer as appropriate and prescribed by Navy procedures to allow him to exercise more senior oversight and judgment of the situation,” the report said.
A Navy spokesman declined to tell the Navy Times whether Coppock would be discharged from service, telling the publication: “As of right now, she remains on active duty.”
Fox News’ Lucas Tomlinson contributed to this report.
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  #257  
Old 9th May 2018, 17:50
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Reduced pay for 3 months plus a bad report, is that the best they can do.
No doubt she will be persuaded to leave and find a job at Wallmart.
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  #258  
Old 9th May 2018, 18:42
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If her conscience allows and she is able then she will be utterly risk averse in future. Perhaps too much so for a warship in action but as far as colregs are concerned she will be a master of them (can we say mistress?).
I am not sure why bridge to bridge communications should figure if normal obedience to the rules had been done - expert opinion please?
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  #259  
Old 9th May 2018, 19:18
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
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#258

Very droll, David!

After such a complete finding of incompetence it seems highly unlikely that any career could survive; and my own feeling, for what it might be worth, is to feel sorry for the woman.

Stephen's "Unbelievable" remark surely refers to the fact that she is still, for the time being, on the active list.

As an apprentice I was witness to serious damage caused to a new Rea tugboat by the B&I Ferry Munster when docking at Waterloo lock, Liverpool. Approaching flood-way on the ebb-tide (i.e. with the tide behind her) the Ferry ran hopelessly too close to the tugboat which was lying at Princes Stage. It was obvious that serious damage had been caused. Another witness, an elderly pilot, advised, "Always feel sorry for a man in the sh1t." And so I do.

As to bridge to bridge communication - you are absolutely right! Communication between motorists by mobile phone when driving is prohibited!
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  #260  
Old 12th May 2018, 05:05
nickwilson89 nickwilson89 is offline  
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Without sounding too vindictive I would have thought masters, officers of the deck and others in command faced prison sentences when their proven negligence caused the loss of life. Certainly enough grounds for a charge of multiple manslaughter.

In the case of the Fitzgerald could the next of kin bring a civil suit against the officer for unlawful killing?

Nick
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  #261  
Old 12th May 2018, 05:36
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i think the us military are a law unto themselves in most cases.i still remember when the captain of vincennes shot down civilian airliner years ago,his punishment -they gave him a medal
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  #262  
Old 12th May 2018, 05:37
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
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#260

On the face of it, that would appear possible.

Whether or not such a case would succeed is quite another matter.
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  #263  
Old 24th January 2019, 16:48
callpor callpor is offline   SN Supporter
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Resurrecting this thread....
This appreared on Old Salt Blog today. The article referred to from the Navy Times makes interesting but terrifying reading. Take a read of both at:- http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2019/01/t...n-we-thought/? utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaig n=Feed%3A+OldSaltBlog+%28Old+Salt+Blog%29
Chris
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  #264  
Old 24th January 2019, 19:25
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Well worth reading!

Quote:

As the seconds ticked toward 1:30 a.m. on June 17, 2017, Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock darted onto the Fitzgerald’s bridge wing.

The sea air curled black around her as she gripped the alidade, frantic that she’d be tossed overboard.

“Oh sh1t,” she said. “I’m so fucked.”



Better:

The Navy is "trained to navigate without charts" !!!!!!!!



If the USN is running like this, what is the USCG doing? Same?
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  #265  
Old 25th January 2019, 06:03
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re: Stephen J. Card keyed:

Quote

Well worth reading!

Unquote

True but read it here along with 40 comments by ex US Navy Destroyer sailors, some ex/retired 7th fleet.

https://tinyurl.com/y838ne54

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...t-you-to-read/

Greg Hayden
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  #266  
Old 9th February 2019, 20:47
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Two LONG detailed features including animations of these two disasters.

https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/

https://features.propublica.org/navy...-cause-mccain/

Greg Hayden
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  #267  
Old 9th February 2019, 22:39
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Thanks Greg, A good long read!

Not much what the other lookouts actually doing, not what the should have been doing. No comment on the fact that the FITZ was crossing the lane. No comments about steaming lights... were they 'dimmed'?

CRYSTAL. Call the captain if 1,000 yards off another? At that point it is useless! The 2/0 was steering on auto. What is the problem with that? Normal.

Anyhow, thanks for passing.

Stephen
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  #268  
Old 10th February 2019, 01:31
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The first Pro-publica link really puts a human face on all the awful happenings aboard USS Fitzgerald. The navy's top brass did a great job of covering their own asses, firing those who had attempted to draw attention to the 7th Fleet's shortages. "I had to fire him (Adm. Aucoin)
otherwise they'd have come looking at me." - Adm. Swift, Pacific Fleet.

I shall read more of the second link later - I expect it to be as interesting as the first paper.
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  #269  
Old 10th February 2019, 01:43
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re: Not much what the other lookouts actually doing, not what the should have been doing.

When new 20 odd years ago manning was 330 today 254. There used to be port and starboard lookouts on the respective bridge wings assigned to each watch. Today there is one lookout assigned per watch and they are supposed to walk back and forth watching both sides, but the watch OD assigned the one lookout to go help with the steering.

There are two steering stations one fore the other aft on the bridge centerline. Both are like computer games. BTW, the computers and operating systems on both ships is MS Windows 2000 era. All three of their email systems went away years ago and never was fixed.

The navy rates ships readiness in colors, green is 100% manned, and ready to go in all aspects. Yellow is readiness may be impaired. Red is ships have fallen behind both in maintenance, repairs and readiness.

All CONUS based US Navy ships show green, those of the 7th fleet in Asia are all yellow or red.

re: No comment on the fact that the FITZ was crossing the lane.

That was illustrated on the collision animated graphic.

re: No comments about steaming lights... were they 'dimmed'?

That is mentioned that they both were operating in black out mode without showing ANY lights. Someone on the Fitz lit off the Out of Command Lights after the collision and the ship was dead in the water.

re: The 2/0 was steering on auto. What is the problem with that? Normal.

The Navy had upgraded the bridge steering consoles they were all small radar screens push buttons and levers. NO ONE on the bridge had ANY training in operating the new consoles. There was a problem with the forward console not working and they were trying to switch to the aft console at the time of the collision. That is where the lookout went.

NONE of the radar systems on board operated properly. The auto refresh function had failed so long ago that the button to turn it on was taped over so no one accidentally lit it off. The operator had to hit the refresh button as many as 1,000 times per hour to have something to look at.

Ships AIS transmitter was off there was one lap top in CC where they watch AIS. But someone had changed the settings so it did not show close by ships. Only those at a distance. Looking at that the Fitz crew thought they were all alone.

Greg Hayden
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  #270  
Old 10th February 2019, 11:37
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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So the Americans wanted to be the largest Navy in the world, typical of the US mind set in everything.
But it doesn't matter how large it is if ships staff are poorly trained commanded by a bunch of officers with degrees in Horticulture and similar unrelated subjects, who have no backbone to stand up to the powers that be and stop the ships sailing when maintenance and training is in a critical state. And all the buck passing and CYA that is going on.
Considering in the Merchant Navy of our day most things worked or was down on the list for the next port to be fixed.
The ships weren't top heavy with degrees and all staff were experienced and even the most junior of staff had some skills to add unlike the Rednecks the US Navy employ that could not pass their GED at school.
The British Navy may be small, but it is well trained and professional. Apart from the HMS Nottingham incident some years back I have not heard of any similar incidents.
There are a few good U-Tube videos on training of the different branches that are worth watching.
Regardless of all electronics fitted to ships you cannot beat Mark 1 Eyeball and Seamanship.
The USA has never undergone what Britain has in the last two world wars so they are not hardened.
Though it will be interesting how the present Snowflakes are going to respond Post Brexit.
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  #271  
Old 10th February 2019, 12:30
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I rather think that the need of mark 1 eyeballs and seamanship onboard(!) is directly proportional to the amount of electronics that is fitted. The USA hasn't sunk one of their own flagships through incompetence yet. We have and when an earlier such event was avoided we had the bugger responsible shot on his own quarterdeck. Common sense is not necessarily snowflakiness. Discretion is the better part of valour and perhaps the best part of the Colregs. One of our carcarrier Masters when discussing VHF assisted collisions told me that his instructions were to answer the query "what are your intentions" with "We intend to follow the rules of the road, what are yours" and then to keep out of the questioners way.
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  #272  
Old 10th February 2019, 15:59
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
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Thank you for all of the above.

The reports re McCain seem to be the more alarming.

Fitzgerald was in the open sea - and inattention by the watchkeeping officer is nothing new.

McCain, however, was in port approaches, where concentrated traffic was to be expected. The fact that incompetent persons were placed (as an apparent matter of policy) in control of speed and steering beggars belief.

Within our own merchant navy (to say nothing of the Royal Navy or the military navy of the United States), those in charge of speed and direction are at least given officer rank (with attendant authority, recognition and responsibility).

The folly shown in the McCain case seems likely to repeat itself on our terrestrial highways with the advent of driverless cars with nobody, apparently, in charge, either in the vehicle or remotely.

It does seem clear that the world has gone completely mad. Or might some kind reader reassure me that I am wrong?
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  #273  
Old 10th February 2019, 16:12
sternchallis sternchallis is offline
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Admiral Byng, wasn't it.
But then that was ancient history.
Electronics are only for assistance, not the Be All and End All, though in those two cases it did end all.
I am sure in a court of law the question would be asked , "Did anybody see the ship approaching".
If a Merchant ship ( with 2/O on watch and possibly a lookout) can see a Naval ship then a Naval ship with with more people on watch than a Merchant ship has on board then something is wrong.

The difference being Merchant Navy staff choose the life as a profession not as a change from serving time in prison or McDonalds for life.
I believe the British Navy is quite picky on who it recruits, not the US Navy.

Barrie, I think you are probably right.
On another forum the youngsters complain that their satnav doesn't show road signs and speed limits, yet if they look out the windscreen these things will be quite obvious, so a similar thing with a ship and the youngsters.

Last edited by sternchallis; 10th February 2019 at 16:20..
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  #274  
Old 10th February 2019, 20:16
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Quote -On 8 April 2011, one naval officer was killed and another injured in a shooting on board Astute while berthed at Southampton docks. Southampton City Council's leader, chief executive, and mayor were on board at the time. During a changeover of armed guards, 22-year old Able Seaman Ryan Donovan opened fire with an SA80 assault rifle in the submarine's control room, hitting two officers before being overpowered by Southampton Council's leader Royston Smith, a former RAF flight engineer, and chief executive Alistair Neill.-Unquote.

I think this was aboard the same sub that ran aground somewhere up north, near its base.
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  #275  
Old 11th February 2019, 11:38
callpor callpor is offline   SN Supporter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kewl dude View Post
Two LONG detailed features including animations of these two disasters.

https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/

https://features.propublica.org/navy...-cause-mccain/

Greg Hayden
Greg,

This critique by a Professor at the US Naval war College of the Pro-Publica articles appeared this morning at :- https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/mo...gation-at-sea/ . You and others may find it of interest? Chris
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