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Could you kill a ship?

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  #76  
Old 29th August 2012, 22:42
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Bob,
The book you're referring to is "A Ship is Dying" by Brian Callison. You're right in that the author was indeed well versed in shipboard life as he'd been a Blue Funnel midshipman and 4th Mate.
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  #77  
Old 29th August 2012, 22:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingorry View Post
Attempts at ship preservation have almost always been failures. Take the case of the MANXMAN. I sailed on her every year she was in Steam Packet service, and was her Purser in the early 1970s. When she finished her IOMSPCo service in 1982 she went to Preston, then to Liverpool, on to Hull and finished up in the Pallion Yard, where, for all I know, she may still be languishing.
The MANXMAN has now been out of service and derelict for much longer than she was in active Steam Packet service.
I prefer to remember her as a fine working ship, not as a failed nightclub venture - the 'Manxman Princess' she was called. So, yes, she should have been broken up in 1982, and I would have been the first to have taken the torch to her. It would have put her out of her undoubted misery, and would have been a dignified end.
When a ship, however fine and much-loved, has reached the end of her working life, she should be broken up, and I would be the first to start that process. The ship will then be remembered for what she was; not as a decaying derelict.
kingorry (R.783921)
The opening statement just couldn't be more incorrect, at least as any reflection of typical reality. I'm sorry things went the way they did for the Manxman, but that's not usually the end for ships in preservation.

To have a look at just how atypical this is, just have a look at this: http://hnsa.org/location.htm

That list of ships is mostly just warships, the 1886 Full-rigged Ship Balclutha of San Francisco (among many others) isn't even listed!!

A conducive environment is needed, but it's anything but fait accompli that a preservation effort will end in failure.
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  #78  
Old 30th August 2012, 00:22
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Moshulu (Pennsylvania)
Glenlee (Glasgow)
Pommern (Finland)
Falls of Clyde (Honolulu)

are others in arious stages of restoration.
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  #79  
Old 30th August 2012, 08:10
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A fate worse than death - for ships as well as humans!

Hi Guys,

Would like to add my tuppence worth to this thread....

There is a fate worse than death - for ships too..... Just look at what has been done to the ' Cutty Sark ' ! Millions and millions spent by, no doubt, well meaning luvvies, only to be condemned to be propped up in space on sticks like a sack of potatoes. A maritime space shuttle with masts. She is, in effect, a ghost ship of new frames holding together the old iron and timber. Money has been lavished on this project to create a beautifully looking clone, and a totally artificial effect for gawping tourists.. A flying ship suspended in space so unnatural and alien for a thing of maritime beauty.

I suppose it could be argued that this is better than slowly rotting away like my old ship the ' Duke of Lancaster ' on the Welsh coast.

For my money, I would have preferred the millions to be spent keeping the Cutty Sark in a wet berth with regular dry docking for maintainance - that is before the fire. That way she would have been a ship in her element, radiating her natural elegance, and would have been a great history lesson for all to see, especially the youngsters. Maybe they should have called it a day after the fire, rather than spending all that obscene money massaging the egos of the great and the good who get attracted to such projects, like moths to a flame. Common sense seems to desert them.

Last edited by Alan Rawlinson; 30th August 2012 at 09:17..
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  #80  
Old 30th August 2012, 17:19
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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I have to agree with you Alan in regard's to the Cutty Sark, apparently the Chief Engineer walked off the project in protest at the vessel being in a "suspended mode". In his view this mode will cause structural problem's in the future. At least when vessel's were re-furbished at Hartlepool they have the ability to FLOAT
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  #81  
Old 1st September 2012, 09:52
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http://sixsentences.ning.com/profiles/blogs/bitter-end

I suppose I've posted this link just to save myself a bit of typing. Needless to say she has now gone, towed around to Yelland Quay and cut up as far as I know.
Quite sad end for this little ship.
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  #82  
Old 1st September 2012, 11:20
DAVID ALCOCK DAVID ALCOCK is offline  
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their are many disasters in the preservation movement worldwide
in the US - OLYMPIA (NATIONAL TREASURE) TEXAS (SINKING DESPITE A RUMOURED 23MILLION$ IN THE BANK) NEW JERSEY (DESPITE STATE SUPPORT) for starters
EXETER museum the steam tug at Cardiff HMS ALLIANCE even CUTTYSARK allower to virtually rot away before a RIDICULOUS anount of cash was found and even HMS VICTORY is often reported to be desparate for mainterance cash
in SOUTH AFRICA the tug ALWYN VINTCENT is now on her 7th or 8th rescue attempt 408km from the sea and is being restored to working condition AGAIN
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  #83  
Old 1st September 2012, 11:58
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restoration success

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID ALCOCK View Post
their are many disasters in the preservation movement worldwide
in the US - OLYMPIA (NATIONAL TREASURE) TEXAS (SINKING DESPITE A RUMOURED 23MILLION$ IN THE BANK) NEW JERSEY (DESPITE STATE SUPPORT) for starters
EXETER museum the steam tug at Cardiff HMS ALLIANCE even CUTTYSARK allower to virtually rot away before a RIDICULOUS anount of cash was found and even HMS VICTORY is often reported to be desparate for mainterance cash
in SOUTH AFRICA the tug ALWYN VINTCENT is now on her 7th or 8th rescue attempt 408km from the sea and is being restored to working condition AGAIN
Interesting comment...

set me thinking about restoration in general. Isn't it strange that in the aircraft industry, restored aircraft often fly ( OK, some crash) but with restored ships , they rarely sail??? I suppose the liberty ship, Jeremiah O.Brian, is an exception.

Given that the high profile ones i.e. Cutty Sark; Queen Mary, Brittania, etc often attract barrow loads of cash, it should be possible to find a role afloat and preferably make token voyages, just like the WW11 bombers and spitfires do. I am aware that the hull certification and insurance might be a big hurdle, but the aircraft boys seem to be able to overcome this.

Last edited by Alan Rawlinson; 2nd September 2012 at 07:52..
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  #84  
Old 2nd September 2012, 10:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID ALCOCK View Post
their are many disasters in the preservation movement worldwide
in the US - OLYMPIA (NATIONAL TREASURE) TEXAS (SINKING DESPITE A RUMOURED 23MILLION$ IN THE BANK) NEW JERSEY (DESPITE STATE SUPPORT) for starters
EXETER museum the steam tug at Cardiff HMS ALLIANCE even CUTTYSARK allower to virtually rot away before a RIDICULOUS anount of cash was found and even HMS VICTORY is often reported to be desparate for mainterance cash
in SOUTH AFRICA the tug ALWYN VINTCENT is now on her 7th or 8th rescue attempt 408km from the sea and is being restored to working condition AGAIN
Well, as for the USS Olympia, the guy who ran that museum has been, as I recall, convicted & sentenced to prison for?... embezzlement I believe? It was quite a bit of money, too.

As for the USS Texas, I don't know the problem, but she apparently needs to be looked after.

Real Estate isn't the only thing for which "location, location, location" is critical.

I was involved volunteering with both the SS Jeremiah O'Brien and the S.F. Maritime museum/ Hyde street pier ships. The J.O.B. was moored for years at Fort Mason, a little further away from fisherman's wharf, in S.F. After moving to Pier 45, in the heart of Fisherman's wharf, I was told she pulled in more money per weekend in visitor ticket sales than after several months at Fort Mason. That's part of what I meant about the ships needing a conducive environment.

Like I said, those ships in that list the link points to in my last message are just a very partial listing of the ships in preservation.

Inferentially comparing a few ships with problems, against the comparatively massive number in preservation, would seem to be a hasty generalization.
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Last edited by needadditionalinformation; 2nd September 2012 at 10:37..
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  #85  
Old 3rd September 2012, 07:34
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choice

Interesting to read about the ' Jeremy O'brian' and the importance of location...

Of course, funding and the flow of funds is paramount, but in the case of the ' Cutty Sark ' my point is that funds were available but the wrong decision was made for the future of the project. The location in Greenwich, similar to Fisherman's Wharf in S.F. ensures a steady stream of dosh as the gawpers stroll onto the quay.

I appreciate that the decision to hang her in space must have been a majority decision by well meaning people. I stick to the view, however, that this was nothing short of a disaster from a maritime perspective. It was almost ' Disneyfication' - a fate she did not deserve...
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  #86  
Old 5th September 2012, 19:51
DAVID ALCOCK DAVID ALCOCK is offline  
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the"EXPERTS" say that CUTTY SARK was "spreading "due to lack of water preasure and that the current display was the best long term solution!???no doubt we will find out in 10-20years!!when the next solution needs funding!
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  #87  
Old 6th September 2012, 13:04
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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It seems a bit daft when they employed a Qualified Engineer and his Deputy (who also walked out) and then overuled them, a bit like employing a Qualified Master for your Motor Yacht and then totally ignoring is advice on the best routing to the Port of your choice. I am sure your right David in your observation's, only time will tell. Unless there is another fire!!
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  #88  
Old 7th September 2012, 07:28
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cutty sark

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadburn View Post
It seems a bit daft when they employed a Qualified Engineer and his Deputy (who also walked out) and then overuled them, a bit like employing a Qualified Master for your Motor Yacht and then totally ignoring is advice on the best routing to the Port of your choice. I am sure your right David in your observation's, only time will tell. Unless there is another fire!!
There may be a technical issue. The craftsmen have created a beautiful reproduction really, using the very best materials. I am sure every effort had been made to create the Cutty Sark in all her original glory - especially as there were ridiculous amounts of money available. Whether she lasts or not however, my objection is aesthetic, regardless of the technical considerations. Even on her best passage - 'flying along' was a figure of speech only! I doubt she ever left the water completely to take to the air like she is now. In my view, which admittedly is only one, it was simply the wrong choice.
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