Flying Enterprise - Page 3 - Ships Nostalgia
07:11

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Flying Enterprise

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #51  
Old 17th March 2017, 13:11
vic pitcher vic pitcher is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
My location
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post
Speaking of Nicholls's Seamanship, my own copy is the 20th Edition, published in 1953. Well thumbed, it sits on my bookshelf next to my desk.

Next to it, even older, is "Practical Seamanship for use in the Merchant Service"by John Todd and W.B. Whall, published by G.Philip & Son, London & Liverpool in 1898. Inside it is inscribed:-

Chas. L.A. Lecoustre
Liverpool
ss Montgomery 1901.

Captain Charles Louis Albert Lecoustre was my late wife's grandfather. A former Conway cadet, (and Chairman/President? of the MMSA) he became Chief Examiner of Masters & Mates at Liverpool between the Wars. He examined my own father for Second Mate in 1932.

If anybody might have information as to ss Montgomery of 1901 I should be most grateful to hear it.

Many thanks,

BY
Barrie
In 1952 "Sea Breezes" published a series of articles by Capt T P Marshall (Retire Principal Examnier of Masters & Mates). The September 1952 article recounted his service in Horsley's turret ship "Montgomery" as 3rd Mate under Lecoustre about whom he said this "A sailor and navigator beyond all expectations....an example to all who serve at sea..." In 1903 "Montgomery" loaded rice in Rangoon for Bordeaux, a pilotage error in the Gironde grounded her on a sandbank where she broke her back, thus ending Marshall's service in her.

V P
__________________
undefinedundefined

Vic Pitcher
Manners makyth man
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 17th March 2017, 15:27
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,757
Thank you, Vic,

That is much appreciated. I've now found a further obituary which indicates that he gained command in 1895 at the age of 25 and was thus the youngest man in command of a British foreign-going steamship at the time. It also states that he retired as an Examiner in 1930; and thus I was incorrect in suggesting that he had examined my Dad for Second Mate. But Dad certainly knew of him.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 17th March 2017, 16:12
woodend's Avatar
woodend woodend is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Deck
Active: 1955 - Present
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,087
Thanks all for an excellent thread! I have just read it all and there are some very interesting entries. Like Barrie I was a 'lightie' when the FE drama played itself out and as we didn't have television at home used to pedal my bike as fast as I could to my Grannies (who had television) as fast as I could to catch up with the drama. I have nothing constructive to add apart from touching my forelock to two excellent SEAMEN Carlson and Dancy who in my opinion went over and beyond the call of duty,
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 18th March 2017, 02:40
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
The Little Sheaf Arrow...

I wrote this a couple of years after the event, while on another ship, sharing past shipboard experiences. I have posted it here before.

A YOUNG LAD'S INITIATION! 1950

MY FIRST TRIP - AS PEGGY...

I had nothing to do for an hour or two,
so I thought I'd compose a short poem.
I would write of the sailors who taught me so well
and about the big debt that I owe 'em.

I first went to sea in a rusty old tramp,
full of thoughts and big dreams of adventure.
Signed on at the Pool by Bill Henke, the scamp
and away to my ship I did venture.

Many films had I seen of sailors so tough
on the screen, in my recent schooldays.
But I wasn't prepared - they were so bloody rough,
would I see anymore my birthdays?

Soon we sailed away to the far shores of France -
it was far for me as a lad!
The excitement of landing made me piss my new pants,
if he knew, my dad would be mad!

Back at sea I worked hard and although I was sick,
they made me work harder and harder.
"Move it Peg!" they would say - Hell! I can't take a trick,
it just made me get madder and madder.

Rough weather we struck in the Biscay Bay,
with sixty-foot waves high above us.
Just two thousand tons, we hardly made way
and we wondered, "Does God really love us?"

On deck, I was hit by a bloody great wave
and into the scuppers did go.
From the dark came a hand and this lad did it save,
'twas Jamaican AB - big Fred Crowe!

"It's OK me lad - grab my big black 4rse!"
and I flung my arms tight round his waist.
I owed my young life to big brave Fred
as he fought hard to safety in haste.

We just made it home - with a deep starboard list,
and the skipper yelled: "TO YOUR GODS PRAY!!"
We did, and ashore we all went to get pissed
and give thanks for that GLORIOUS DAY!

I signed three more times on that brave little ship,
and the sailors, they taught me so much.
Respect for the sea and the mates that you made,
in a life that most men wouldn't touch.

But the best part of all was it gave me some marrow,
as I grew from a boy to a man.
I learned to be tough and to face up to fear
and from terror, I no longer ran.

I will never forget the little "SHEAF ARROW"
as she fought through that raging great storm,
and the captain so strong, who stayed days awake,
to ensure we arrived safely home.

Taff

Footnote: Little did I know that we were again to experience a storm which once more caused our load of iron ore to shift, creating another worrying list.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 18th March 2017, 03:40
spongebob's Avatar
spongebob spongebob is offline
Spongebob
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Engineering
Active: 1957 - 1961
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,821
Well versed Taff, must be good to read after so many years have passed

Bob
__________________
spongebob,

Last edited by spongebob; 18th March 2017 at 09:00..
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 18th March 2017, 06:46
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
Thank you, Bob. To be honest, I had a job finding it, couldn't locate it anywhere and 'My Posts' only go back a short time, now. Eventually found it in an old email to my brother in Wales!

You are right, though, it was fantastic recalling a bunch of us trying our hand at poetry while chewing the fat on No 4 as I relived the experience and the close calls. There were a few hair-raising tales from my mates, too.
Must admit, I had a few attempts at getting it to sound right, but!

Cheers

Taff
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 18th March 2017, 09:59
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,757
Well done, Taff.

It rhymes and it scans and it tells your story. I remember reading it in SN some time ago but didn't connect it then with the Flying Enterprise blow.

Some time ago somebody asked me "Were you ever scared at sea?"

I answered, "No", on the basis that I had often been worried but had never had the time to be scared.

Yesterday I was at the funeral of a good friend. The departure music (which my friend had chosen before he died) was Lee Marvin's "Wanderin' Star". The line "Sun can burn your eyes, but only people make you cry" was most poignant: the point being that as a mariner you learn to cope with the elements, otherwise you simply don't survive. I'll bet that Carlsen wasn't remotely scared; and neither was Dancy. They both knew exactly what they were doing.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 18th March 2017, 11:19
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post
Well done, Taff.

It rhymes and it scans and it tells your story. I remember reading it in SN some time ago but didn't connect it then with the Flying Enterprise blow.

Some time ago somebody asked me "Were you ever scared at sea?"

I answered, "No", on the basis that I had often been worried but had never had the time to be scared.

Yesterday I was at the funeral of a good friend. The departure music (which my friend had chosen before he died) was Lee Marvin's "Wanderin' Star". The line "Sun can burn your eyes, but only people make you cry" was most poignant: the point being that as a mariner you learn to cope with the elements, otherwise you simply don't survive. I'll bet that Carlsen wasn't remotely scared; and neither was Dancy. They both knew exactly what they were doing.
Barrie, you wouldn't have connected it with the Enterprise as, although the storms were equally as bad as each other, the poem was about my first trip to sea - on the same ship - and the close call with Enterprise was a few trips later.

I did write another poem about that episode when I had my 17th birthday on the bridge, packed with the crew. However, I haven't seen it for years, so I must look for it one day.

I think it was Fred Crowe, the big Jamaican who saved my life on the Sheaf Arrow, who told me, "You can't have courage without fear, son!"

Sorry to hear about your friend Barrie. May he rest in peace.

All the best

Taff
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 18th March 2017, 11:39
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,757
Taff,

I wouldn't doubt Fred's advice for a moment.

My Dad taught me that "Whatever might happen, you must keep a straight face."

If you can keep your head, when all men doubt you............etc.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 18th March 2017, 12:41
Stephen J. Card's Avatar
Stephen J. Card Stephen J. Card is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,280
Taff,

Thanks posting your poem.

Your line from Cousteau reminds one that I like..

"Man came from the sea, when he is really smart he goes back to it!"


Stephen
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 18th March 2017, 14:21
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen J. Card View Post
Taff,

Thanks posting your poem.

Your line from Cousteau reminds one that I like..

"Man came from the sea, when he is really smart he goes back to it!"


Stephen
... and how I wish I was that smart!!

Taff
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 20th March 2017, 07:38
roscoe_the_1st roscoe_the_1st is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 18
I have to concede that the actions of Carlson And Dancy were actions of bravery of the highest order and it now seems to me impertinent to suggest some skulduggery was involved.

This recent review of events from early 1952 was started by a comment I heard in a lecture when the speaker said that his mother had commented that "the Government are trying to hide something here". I never used to question anything I heard on the news but these days I question everything. Fake news has been around for some time.

Thanks for all the comments from the impressive expertise we have on this forum.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 20th March 2017, 07:44
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoe_the_1st View Post
I have to concede that the actions of Carlson And Dancy were actions of bravery of the highest order and it now seems to me impertinent to suggest some skulduggery was involved.

This recent review of events from early 1952 was started by a comment I heard in a lecture when the speaker said that his mother had commented that "the Government are trying to hide something here". I never used to question anything I heard on the news but these days I question everything. Fake news has been around for some time.

Thanks for all the comments from the impressive expertise we have on this forum.
Roscoe, your above post is very much appreciated. It just shows the measure of the type of members we have on this great site and you have just measured up to the best of them.

Many thanks,

Taff
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 22nd March 2017, 09:11
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,757
The courage, competence and cool-headedness shown by both Carlsen and Dancy serve as guiding examples for all time.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 22nd March 2017, 12:43
chadburn chadburn is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,573
There is no doubt that both Carlsen and Dancy were very brave and I remember watching them clinging on to the angled Deck.
Again from memory I am fairly sure that a U.S. Navy Diving vessel was on the site of the sinking shortly afterwards. Is that right?
__________________
Geordie Chief

From Grey Funnel to any Funnel, just show him/ me the money Mabel
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 22nd March 2017, 16:08
Alan Rawlinson's Avatar
Alan Rawlinson Alan Rawlinson is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1951 - 1999
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
My location
Posts: 1,434
We all love a mystery

Interesting thread, but my take on this is that it is a non story. Along the lines of "Elvis on the moon" and "The moon landings were fake". On this latter one, I favour Fuerta Ventura in the Canaries as the location for the filming. Anyone who has holidayed there will know what I mean - just like the moon shots on T.V.!

Remember the ' Flying Enterprise ' saga well, as I was homeward bound in the same storm. She never was a ' Liberty Ship'. The events were dramatic, but normal (if that is the right expression) for a maritime disaster, and the characters faced with the challenge handled it exceptionally well, and bravely. Carlson and Dancy captured the public imagination big time when it was unfolding.

Falmouth with it's location and facilities is always up there in the running as first choice for vessels caught in an emergency in the Western Approaches. - mileage is somewhat secondary, depending on the ever changing danger. Maritime History is littered with wrong decisions on this one, due to things getting unexpectedly worse during the run for safety and shelter.

As for the cargo, again, the media and the authors (hurrah for the author's) love to speculate that something was being transported that was not on the Manifest. The ' Lusitania ' sinking is the prime example of this one. Or, it was gold, or nuclear material etc etc

Where would we all be if life was as it seems and all things were mundane. Better to spice it all up.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 22nd March 2017, 16:33
chadburn chadburn is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,573
As for the cargo, again, the media and the authors (hurrah for the author's) love to speculate that something was being transported that was not on the Manifest. The ' Lusitania ' sinking is the prime example of this one. Or, it was gold, or nuclear material etc etc

Where would we all be if life was as it seems and all things were mundane. Better to spice it all up.[/QUOTE]

Alan just the one observation, I have sailed on a vessel which carried cargo which was not on the Manifest from Germany and one vessel I know of carried Nuclear Material again from Germany, it was all done for Security reasons of course, so I would not poo poo the idea all together.
__________________
Geordie Chief

From Grey Funnel to any Funnel, just show him/ me the money Mabel

Last edited by chadburn; 22nd March 2017 at 19:15..
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 22nd March 2017, 19:45
Alan Rawlinson's Avatar
Alan Rawlinson Alan Rawlinson is offline
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1951 - 1999
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
My location
Posts: 1,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadburn View Post
As for the cargo, again, the media and the authors (hurrah for the author's) love to speculate that something was being transported that was not on the Manifest. The ' Lusitania ' sinking is the prime example of this one. Or, it was gold, or nuclear material etc etc

Where would we all be if life was as it seems and all things were mundane. Better to spice it all up.
Alan just the one observation, I have sailed on a vessel which carried cargo which was not on the Manifest from Germany and one vessel I know of carried Nuclear Material again from Germany, it was all done for Security reasons of course, so I would not poo poo the idea all together.[/QUOTE]

Agree - life is strange, and strange things happen at sea!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 23rd March 2017, 01:52
kewl dude's Avatar
kewl dude kewl dude is offline  
Senior Member
Organisation: Other Merchant Fleets
Department: Engineering
Active: 1960 - 1976
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,517
End of March 1968 I was 2/E on the C3 SS Pecos. Operated by Oriental Exporters/Ogden Marine, post war two she was operated by Matson for decades; who eventually traded her in for a new built ship. When 'Nam came along she was pulled out of James River Reserve Fleet and put to work again.

Moored at OAT - Oakland Army Terminal - a whole slew of uniformed US Navy Officers and enlisted men came aboard. We were directed to shift to the (Mare Island?) area where US Navy atomic subs docked. Once tied up all of we crew were relieved by Navy Officers and ratings and herded together in one place. Unlicensed in the crews mess, officers in the saloon. The dead lights were closed and armed guards kept an eye on the crew. The US Navy Commander, that herded we officers together, told us considering we were gentlemen we would not be guarded.

ALL of the officers were young Maine Maritime Academy graduates. The whole bunch of them had been on CS Long Lines, that had gone into lay-up. I was the only one up from the forecastle. First part of February I flew out to Tokyo to meet her after a 3/E fell and broke his leg. This was the port time between voyages.

Our Master, an old man of 28, watched the Commander go away. After awhile he said "I don't know about you guys but I am going up on the bridge to see what is going on." We all followed along. Up in the wheelhouse, we stood back from the ports so we would not be seen. There was nothing to see they were loading wooden crates. So we gave it up and went below.

After our cargo was loaded we were sprung from our captivity to take the ship back to OAT. During the shift the Navy built a HEAVY TIMBER wall completely around that cargo. At OAT more Navy palletized cargo was loaded in that hatch tight against the Secret Cargo.

Discharging at Newport in 'Nam, when we got down to the Secret Cargo, we shifted over to Cat Lai -- anchored in the stream. A whole slew of USCG officers and enlisted, all wearing white boiler suits, and white hardhats, came aboard to supervise unloading. Just by chance one crate was dropped and broke open spilling its cargo on the deck. Anti-Personnel Mine Aluminum things a few inches long designed to hold a rifle round.

Seems Charlie had been using these for years. Except Charlie made them out of bamboo with a nail in the bottom. Charlie filed down the base of live cartridges to make them thinner. US thinned the cartridge bases before loading the propellant.

Greg Hayden
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 23rd March 2017, 21:34
FG86 FG86 is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,533
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and unfortunately over time the rationale for decisions or actions are often forgotten in favour of more dramatic comments and theories.
if I may add a couple of observations;
1. Falmouth is the main casualty receiving port in the SW waters, part of this being the availability of safe areas to beach and secure damaged ships without clogging channels and ports. In addition Falmouth has all the necessary repair facilities to render repair. Hence to sail to Cork or Dingle would still present problems in repairing the vessel on arrival, especially those needing dry docking. hence the insurers and owners and salvage experts would usually plumb for Falmouth.
2. The presence of a naval vessel is not unusual. In particular when an emergency occurs it is usually the navy that take charge and direct rescue operations, their communications and ability to control shipping and aviation assets are key. The naval vessel would always remain nearby to control and monitor. Part of this would include the dispersal and control of other shipping, hence ordering vessels to keep clear. there are a thousand reasons that the government were interested in the ship, many simply the protection of government assets, such as engineering technology, maybe she was carrying rocket parts for the then developing space race, NASA's origins started with captured V" rockets and equipment, or other important but not 'super top secret' equipment. unfortunately time allows rumours to percolate and develop, unfortunately without the opportunity to dispel them.
Here in Falmouth we have some wonderful mementos of the rescue, I often walk past the steps to the then Shipping Agents office and imagine Capt Carlsen and Mr Dancy standing on those very steps amongst the world press, I believe Capt Carlsen wore a borrowed uniform that didn't quite fit.

Last edited by FG86; 23rd March 2017 at 21:38..
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 24th March 2017, 09:33
Shipbuilder Shipbuilder is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,239
Here is a model that I built of Flying Enterprise some time ago (no longer in my possession). For the past few months, I have been producing an online monthly download (The Shelterdeck), usually about 15 pages in length, pertaining to merchant shipping and ship models. There is a nominal charge (about the price of a cup of coffee). The next one, due out next week contains a GA plan of the Flying Enterprise, amongst other things! These downloads take about seven hours each to write, and I began the latest about a month ago, so it is just a coincidence that this thread started. Please PM me for further details, or visit my blog - click on Miniature Merchant Ships, below.
Bob
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Flying Enterprise (Medium).JPG (93.6 KB, 44 views)
__________________

Miniature Merchant Ships

Last edited by Shipbuilder; 24th March 2017 at 09:38..
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 24th March 2017, 11:07
chadburn chadburn is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,573
Quote:
Originally Posted by FG86 View Post
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and unfortunately over time the rationale for decisions or actions are often forgotten in favour of more dramatic comments and theories.
if I may add a couple of observations;
1. Falmouth is the main casualty receiving port in the SW waters, part of this being the availability of safe areas to beach and secure damaged ships without clogging channels and ports. In addition Falmouth has all the necessary repair facilities to render repair. Hence to sail to Cork or Dingle would still present problems in repairing the vessel on arrival, especially those needing dry docking. hence the insurers and owners and salvage experts would usually plumb for Falmouth.
2. The presence of a naval vessel is not unusual. In particular when an emergency occurs it is usually the navy that take charge and direct rescue operations, their communications and ability to control shipping and aviation assets are key. The naval vessel would always remain nearby to control and monitor. Part of this would include the dispersal and control of other shipping, hence ordering vessels to keep clear. there are a thousand reasons that the government were interested in the ship, many simply the protection of government assets, such as engineering technology, maybe she was carrying rocket parts for the then developing space race, NASA's origins started with captured V" rockets and equipment, or other important but not 'super top secret' equipment. unfortunately time allows rumours to percolate and develop, unfortunately without the opportunity to dispel them.
Here in Falmouth we have some wonderful mementos of the rescue, I often walk past the steps to the then Shipping Agents office and imagine Capt Carlsen and Mr Dancy standing on those very steps amongst the world press, I believe Capt Carlsen wore a borrowed uniform that didn't quite fit.
In reference to your comment regarding the Naval vessel FG, I was referring to a vessel which appeared some time afterwards rather than on the scene at the time of the sinking to Marshall other vessels away.
Like yourself I have always known Falmouth as the 'Safe Harbour' for vessels in Distress in that region because of the facilities you have outlined.
__________________
Geordie Chief

From Grey Funnel to any Funnel, just show him/ me the money Mabel
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 24th March 2017, 20:10
FG86 FG86 is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,533
Hello Chadurn, I totally understand, my comments were in the general vein about naval presence at scenes, not directed at any particular suggestion.
I always found this incident fascinating, it had all the elements of a good seafaring yarn. I think that the then world media interest probably encouraged the actions of Capt Carlsen and Mr Darcy and as such catapulted them onto the world stage, thus ensuring both acted in the finest tradition of seafarers.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 24th March 2017, 20:24
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,757
#74

Help!

I would be astonished if either Carlsen or Dancy gave two buggers about anything that the "world media" might have been thinking at the time!

Their only encouragement - and all that they needed - was doing that which they knew to be right at the time. May God forbid that any mariner might ever need journalism to encourage him in that regard.

PS to confuse Ken Dancy with Mr Darcy - the mind boggles!

Last edited by Barrie Youde; 24th March 2017 at 20:26..
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 24th March 2017, 23:04
tsell tsell is offline
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
My location
Posts: 4,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by FG86 View Post
Hello Chadurn, I totally understand, my comments were in the general vein about naval presence at scenes, not directed at any particular suggestion.
I always found this incident fascinating, it had all the elements of a good seafaring yarn. I think that the then world media interest probably encouraged the actions of Capt Carlsen and Mr Darcy and as such catapulted them onto the world stage, thus ensuring both acted in the finest tradition of seafarers.
What a load of crap!!

Taff
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flying Enterprise 50's david freeman Ship Research 13 23rd July 2015 15:14
Flying Enterprise John Tremelling Ship Research 3 10th January 2010 08:04
USS Enterprise samuel j United States Navy 1 15th July 2009 06:43
BP Enterprise geyerj1 Say Hello 7 22nd March 2007 06:57



Support SN


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.