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  #76  
Old 29th January 2008, 18:42
geforce72 geforce72 is offline  
 
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Hi everyone i am new here so i would like to just like to say hi, in relation to the derbyshire i thought this would show a intresting insight to what they said happened,what a shame...
regards
keith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAhaP53wkM0
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  #77  
Old 29th January 2008, 19:19
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Blobbybluey,
Thanks for your erudite and kind reply. I have taken the liberty of looking at your profile before replying in order to pitch it at the right level. I will attempt to answer your post in a chronological manner.
Human Factors is a broad topic and would of course incorporate the design element (Naval Architect input) amongst others. You are however adamant in your opening statement that human error was never a factor which seems to leave the designers ‘off the hook’. I am however, more interested in the operational human error which was not addressed robustly enough in the enquiry. There were associations that ‘forced’ (as you put it) a certain point of view throughout. Initially it was the infamous Frame failure and subsequent to the ITF sponsored expedition which removed the Frame failure argument attention was directed at total exoneration of any fault on members of the crew. Whilst this is understandable, could it be that the findings of ‘Final Enquiry’ were merely buying peace as some organisations would never rest until they got the outcome ‘they wanted’. We do a disservice to others who continue to sail in these vessels if we do not put emotions aside and look at all aspects of human error. Alternative loading has come under strong criticism. Securing (dogging arrangements) of the foc’sle access hatch was similarly criticised. Positive steps came out of the incident. See SOLAS Chapter XII Additional Safety Measures for Bulk Carriers
Interesting picture of the foc’sle hatch open and mooring rope flaked on deck, don’t you think??.

Your second post is written in a similar vane but a little confused. Universe ships never had blue funnels . They did however have black funnel (halfway there!!) and on six ships Grey Funnels with a GULF logo on them. Their safety record was excellent and I was proud to sail in them. There was never a consideration of me sailing for a communist flag (red flag) company in the 60/70s as the wages were less than the British Flag (reason one goes FOC).

Dodgy Certificate?? You could describe the certificate as such if you wish. I did not have to sit for it. It just arrived in the post. The FOC vessels I sailed for those days were mainly Liberian and Panamanian and the certificates which you describe as ‘dodgy’ were available at examination level ( syllabus approximating to that of the USCG) although I obtained mine on the strength of a British equivalent. Disgraceful I hear you say. I was more than a little ‘miffed’ on this point as the Liberian/Panamanian Authorities did not issue a like for like certificate.

We do however have something in common which I know you will be pleased to hear. Dennis O’Brian who tried to train you in Odyssey Works was a good friend and we celebrated my first command in April 1970 in the Roscoe Arms, Liverpool. But that’s another story and happened before you were even at sea.

All the very best

Bill
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  #78  
Old 29th January 2008, 19:44
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blobbybluey blobbybluey is offline  
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im not going to get all personal on this bill ,i love the condescending way you have summed up me my intelligence ,character etc on the basis of a few lines of of a profile, but as usual you want to prove how far you raised yourself from the gutter/or scupper,i was not being facetious in raising the f.o.c certificate theory it was merely personal experince over seventeen yrs going to sea .one thing bill i didnt just work as a lowly ab/bosun i worked and obtained qualifications that were at or higher than any of youre certificates, in mining and construction in australia,hotel management, in new zealand and the u.s.a and i am at the moment partner in two very succesful buisnesses in new zealand which by the end of this year will have oulets al over the north island and into south island where i will be moving permanently in the near future with my kids and grandkids. and a curse on you for continually besmirching the name of all those that died on the derbyshire i know the facts anybody else that matters knows the facts you just carry on with your bitter tirades. one thing that dennis obrien did apart from training me very well was to tell every one of us was to beware of the likes of you, and always look the devil in the eye .i am not going to reply to any more of youre posts because i think you just use the turmoil you cause to fill youre sad and lonely existence regards
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  #79  
Old 29th January 2008, 22:53
samuel j
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Originally Posted by geforce72 View Post
Hi everyone i am new here so i would like to just like to say hi, in relation to the derbyshire i thought this would show a intresting insight to what they said happened,what a shame...
regards
keith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAhaP53wkM0
good find keith, thks
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  #80  
Old 29th January 2008, 23:16
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Originally Posted by blobbybluey View Post
i know the facts anybody else that matters knows the facts
Many thanks yours

Bill
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  #81  
Old 30th January 2008, 01:04
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
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QUOTE
In 2001, Prof. Douglas Faulkner, Emeritus Professor of University of Glasgow, published a lengthy and highly analytical paper examining the Derbyshire's loss in light of the emerging body of scientific evidence regarding the mechanics of freak waves. Among other things, it is now becoming more widely accepted in the scientific community that such rogue waves are far more common than previous mathematical models (and the older ship-building standards that stemmed from them) had suggested. Prof. Faulkner's paper won the "Royal Institution of Naval Architects" award for excellence that year. Prof. Faulkner took direct issue with the conclusions of the original assessment, noting that given the meteorological conditions, and the length of time she was exposed to the peak conditions of the storm, it was almost certain that Derbyshire would have encountered a wave of sufficient size to destroy her. He concluded: "Beyond any reasonable doubt, the direct cause of the loss of the m.v. DERBYSHIRE was the quite inadequate strength of her cargo hatch covers to withstand the forces of typhoon ORCHID.'
UNQUOTE
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  #82  
Old 30th January 2008, 09:53
Chouan Chouan is offline  
 
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I think, Oceangoer, that that says it all.
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  #83  
Old 30th January 2008, 11:13
gbig1 gbig1 is offline  
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i stayed on the lincolnshire and done a double header many of the crew that paid off joined and went down with the derbyshire so there but for the grace of god go i
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  #84  
Old 30th January 2008, 23:03
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
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Those of you who are interested in another analysis of the sinking which comes to substantially the same conclusion as Faulkner can look here :-

http://www.shipstructure.org/derby.shtml

Thanks to Bill Davies and others who have re-awoken my somnolent mind on this issue. I now recall that following Derbyshire I stayed away from big bulkers and stuck to tankers and general cargo (chicken).

The question I'd be interested in discussing is .... how did the Master find himself in this situation re typhoon Orchid. He had weather routing etc yet still found himself in the dangerous semi circle.

Here's something to start you off ..... http://www.ocean-systems.com/pdf_doc...20at%20Sea.pdf

Last edited by oceangoer; 30th January 2008 at 23:57..
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  #85  
Old 31st January 2008, 12:11
Santos Santos is offline  
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I really do not see the point of resurrecting something which official judgement has already been passed on and which invites those still seeking to blame someone revel in their own and nobody elses importance.

The Derbyshire is gone with all her crew, the relatives of those lost fought hard and long for justice and hopefully are now at some kind of peace.

No ammount of personal speculation on who or what was the cause of the loss is going to serve any useful purpose, on the contrary it is just going to raise blood pressures and perhaps cause pain to anyone personally involved in the tragedy who sees this thread. Those that are gone cannot answer for themselves so only speculation can be put forward.

Leave it alone and move to another subject which is not as delicate as this one.

Chris.

Last edited by Santos; 31st January 2008 at 12:51..
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  #86  
Old 31st January 2008, 13:04
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Oceangoer,

I am well conversant with Faulkners findings and I have met him but, he is an academic. I am always mildly surprised when these men are often dismissed 'out of hand' but embraced with a passion when it suits. I sailed in OBOs before and after this dreadful incident and have a vested interest in pursuing the truth. Improving safety at sea is what interests me. Emotions and burying one head in the sand do not help.
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  #87  
Old 31st January 2008, 13:14
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Orbitaman Orbitaman is offline  
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Providing the 'truth' echoes Bills opinion?
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  #88  
Old 31st January 2008, 13:15
Chouan Chouan is offline  
 
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"I am well conversant with Faulkners findings and I have met him but, he is an academic."

And....?

I know that my reply is invisible to Bill, but why is Faulkner being an academic prefixed by a but? Does this make his years of research and study irrelevant because he doesn't have a pre-1970's Master's Certificate?
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  #89  
Old 31st January 2008, 13:37
Santos Santos is offline  
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Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
Oceangoer,

Emotions and burying one head in the sand do not help.
No we must find a fall guy, must'nt we Bill, no matter what pain we inflict on undeserving people.

Obviously to you, structures dont fail through overburden, nor do elements overwhelm , it has to be someones fault, someone who according to you must suffer for this publicly. You live in a sad, sad, world.

Chris.
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  #90  
Old 31st January 2008, 16:35
non descript non descript is offline
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Originally Posted by Santos View Post
I really do not see the point of resurrecting something which official judgement has already been passed on and which invites those still seeking to blame someone revel in their own and nobody elses importance.

The Derbyshire is gone with all her crew, the relatives of those lost fought hard and long for justice and hopefully are now at some kind of peace.

No ammount of personal speculation on who or what was the cause of the loss is going to serve any useful purpose, on the contrary it is just going to raise blood pressures and perhaps cause pain to anyone personally involved in the tragedy who sees this thread. Those that are gone cannot answer for themselves so only speculation can be put forward.

Leave it alone and move to another subject which is not as delicate as this one.

Chris.

Chris
I thank you for your excellent and very wise words - as you say: "it is just going to raise blood pressures and perhaps cause pain to anyone personally involved in the tragedy who sees this thread"
So please, would everyone take full note of these words and make an effort not to add comments that make nothing but trouble and sadness.
There a plenty of people on this Site who have good reason to comment, but have the kindness and style NOT to, they also deserve thanks and understanding.
Mark
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  #91  
Old 1st February 2008, 04:48
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
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Bill,
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Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
Oceangoer,
Emotions and burying one head in the sand do not help.
I suggest you re-read my posts 81 and 84. If you can find "emotion" or even a sand buried head, please advise.

The "hands off, don't touch" requests of some contributors leave me a little puzzled. Without enquiring minds we'll never move forward.

I have no interest in hanging someone out to dry. As I said in an earlier post, I'd be interested to know how she finished up in the dangerous quadrant of Orchid.

I spent much of my seagoing career in the typhoon and cyclone affected longitudes of the East and had a number of disagreements with Charterers who wanted me to follow "their" routing instructions regardless of conditions. Were such instructions a factor ?

The latest timecharter decisions can place the Master in an invidious legal position vis-a-vis weather routing services.
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  #92  
Old 1st February 2008, 07:18
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Oceangoer,
The 'hands off, don't touch' obviously comes from a certain contributor who, as in Blue Funnel Reborn cannot handle a topic and therefore wants it removed.
Without the moderator 'quoting' this individual I would have no indication what he or his colleagues have to offer.
I am not in the slightest bit interested in looking to apportion blame to any individual as their is no point as they are gone. I am however interested in inquiring along the lines that you have suggested and learning from others mistakes if indeed such mistakes were made. That is the only way we will learn. There are too many questions that remain unanswered to sweep this under the carpet. Whether it is done here or elsewhere it will not and should not remain silent.
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  #93  
Old 1st February 2008, 07:53
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
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Bill,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
The 'hands off, don't touch' obviously comes from a certain contributor who, as in Blue Funnel Reborn cannot handle a topic and therefore wants it removed.Without the moderator 'quoting' this individual I would have no indication what he or his colleagues have to offer.
Don't worry about that. It's all part of lifes' rich tapestry, I'd drink it out at the pub in Bleddfa.

Quote:
I am however interested in inquiring along the lines that you have suggested and learning from others mistakes if indeed such mistakes were made.
The thing that intrigues me is the part that "TheWeatherRouter" (TWR) played in this disaster. I'm trying to get hold of a copy of her time charter and the pre-charter correspondence attached thereto.

As you know, Bill, you can be pressed (by the terms of the CP) into a route which has a higher risk than you'd normally be prepared to accept.

The arguments I normally had with Charterers were to do with a certain weather routing company which was brilliant in PR and awful in delivery. When I get some pox doctors clerk telling me what my fuel consumption will be (or else) it engages my phooh phooh valve. As a shipMASTER I did my level best for my Charterer and Owner.

Have a look at some of the recent decision on time charters

I can't help but feel (and that's all it is, just a feeling) that in the case of "Derbyshire" the Master may have been influenced .......
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  #94  
Old 1st February 2008, 14:37
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andysk andysk is offline   SN Supporter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangoer View Post
The question I'd be interested in discussing is .... how did the Master find himself in this situation re typhoon Orchid. He had weather routing etc yet still found himself in the dangerous semi circle.

Here's something to start you off ..... http://www.ocean-systems.com/pdf_doc...20at%20Sea.pdf
It all depends on the accuracy of the information provided by the owners to the Met Office. I was on a bulk carrier and was weather routed from Rotterdam to 7 Islands in January, north about Scotland to avoid a deep depression in the Atlantic. We ran smack into the middle of it because our speed was overestimated to the Met Office, and the low changed course. That was back in the 1970's though, so one would expect things to be a bit more accurate nowadays - or perhaps not.
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  #95  
Old 1st February 2008, 17:07
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I was going to start this off by saying "with all due respect" however I have no respect for those that sit at home and will not let the Derbyshire rest.

What are you trying to achieve by now going on about weather routers, the other day it was masters and crew, then it was the professor, how about the welders, how about the guy loading the cargo, how about the junior who was making the tea,

Why don't you lot send a load of private messages between yourselfs and get off on that, because all you are doing here is taking up space

Was it one of you Masters on FOC's who meant to send a telegram to the company saying "ships engines stopped yet again, have told the charterers that lost 18 hours due to weather" but actually sent it to the charterers. Lets start a thread about those who could not get a job on a British ship and used the excuse of more money on FOC's to justify there newly found position and see how the insults start to fly.

What ever information you think you may learn you are in no position to use any of it. Who is going to listen to you. You are masters of your own lair and no body else is interested in you. So read and listen to what the majority are saying to you and shut the h--l up.

Go get a life and leave those others in peace.
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  #96  
Old 1st February 2008, 17:43
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
 
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Very eloquently written Marinejockey .
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  #97  
Old 2nd February 2008, 00:14
Santos Santos is offline  
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Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
Oceangoer,
The 'hands off, don't touch' obviously comes from a certain contributor who, as in Blue Funnel Reborn cannot handle a topic and therefore wants it removed.
Without the moderator 'quoting' this individual I would have no indication what he or his colleagues have to offer.
I am obviously on your ignore list Bill, great, then everyone can see that you stick your head in the sand and cant take any criticism of your views. How sad that you cant defend yourself and must ignore any difference in opion by blanking it out. I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU.
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  #98  
Old 2nd February 2008, 00:44
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
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Originally Posted by MARINEJOCKY View Post
Go get a life and leave those others in peace.
What a useful addition to the sum of maritime knowledge you propose ..... when there's a marine accident don't investigate or even do a little digging in case it upsets someone.

It is my intention to continue to probe this particular case and a number of others which have some commonality.

When I've finished I'll post what I've found out.
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  #99  
Old 2nd February 2008, 01:07
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Sister Eleff Sister Eleff is offline  
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Originally Posted by geforce72 View Post
Hi everyone i am new here so i would like to just like to say hi, in relation to the derbyshire i thought this would show a intresting insight to what they said happened,what a shame...
regards
keith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAhaP53wkM0
Thank you for posting this link geforce, it certainly helps an amateur like myself to understand a little better. What chance would any have, when it all happened in 2 minutes from the first implosion.

Why do you attack each other over this type of thing? One member put forward a very good question, yes the findings answered one area but did not fully examine all questions, therefore these were not answered. If they had been, the loading or whatever, could have been exonerated or found wanting.

It is not a case of letting those gone, rest in peace but protecting the lives of those still to come. The souls that were lost would not have wanted their passing to go in vane.
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  #100  
Old 2nd February 2008, 01:21
ddraigmor ddraigmor is offline
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There was a huge study done by Captain DC Ramwell, together with the 'Derbyshire Families Association. Frame 65 was blamed.

The research was faultless, based on marine observations and many seafarers contributed to it. It was discounted. The Academic angle was preferred.

I still reckon something smells rotten - but hey, I was just an AB with an interest in the whole affair who hapened to like the way captain Dave Ramwell stood his ground and fought for answers. Seafarers know ships. Academics know facts.

Sometimes the two don't quite meet in a tidy explanation.....but don't shoot me; I'm just having my say.

Jonty
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