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  #1  
Old 17th April 2009, 21:54
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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There was an article in the Nautical Institutes 'Seaways' (then named)magazine back in the 70s which I recall caused much embarrassement to the author on Ore Carriers arriving in certain ports 'by the head'. I will try and find a copy as I am sure it will cause concern re the standard of those engaged in these dangerous ships and possibly throw a different perspective on those serving in these ships.

Bill
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  #2  
Old 17th April 2009, 22:09
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Thanks for re-assigning the post

Bill
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  #3  
Old 17th April 2009, 22:11
K urgess K urgess is offline
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Moved this into it's own thread, Bill.
I'm sure you will agree that to have it in the Derbyshire thread would be wholly inappropriate.
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  #4  
Old 17th April 2009, 22:18
jasmacpm jasmacpm is offline  
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Bill,
can I ask you for more clarity in your posts, ie.,
what 'standard' you refer to?
Who are 'those' engaged in these dangerous ships?
Who are 'those' who will benefit, or not benefit, from the 'different perspective?'

Jimmy.
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  #5  
Old 17th April 2009, 22:45
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Kris,
Quite agree. I was reading the 'Derbyshire 'thread when I wrote it.
Many thanks.


Jimmy,
Yes, you are right to ask as it does not appear clear.
The article I recall was named 'Does it move or dosn't it' . It was written by an individual who should have known better and it recall may help others on the 'thought pocesses' of senior individuals in these class of ships which I would describe as dangerous.
Leave it with me over the weekend and I'll locate it somewhere/somehow and make of it as will. I'm sure you will find it entertaining.

Brgds

Bill
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  #6  
Old 18th April 2009, 07:53
John Cassels John Cassels is offline  
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First interesting thread in months !.
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  #7  
Old 18th April 2009, 08:14
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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I do my best John. It's not all hellfire.
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  #8  
Old 18th April 2009, 14:00
Pilot mac Pilot mac is offline  
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Bill,
many moons ago I sailed as Mate on bulk carriers and it bothered me that on occasions we would arrive by the head after a long ocean passage when it was required that we arrive even keel, (I'm not talking a great amount about 12cm springs to mind). At the time I was sailing with a Mate FG certificate (pre 1978 in case you ask!). I was not aware of change of trim due to change of density, either I had not studied it or it was not in the syllabus for Mate FG at that time. All became clear when sitting Masters as it was in that syllabus and I made sure that I indeed studied it!

regards
Dave
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  #9  
Old 18th April 2009, 14:13
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Dave,
You stole the show! That was indeed the whole point of the article in the 'Seaways'. I'll try and post it tonight . It will be amusing but if I try and give it from memory it will not be the same.

Brgds

Bill
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  #10  
Old 18th April 2009, 20:46
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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JC, Jimmy & Dave, here it is!

The following article was place in the Nautical Institutes periodical (now know as Seaways) around the mid 70s. The article having the title ‘Does it Shift or Dosen’t It’
was written by a Ch.Mate on a British flag Panamax running between Narvik and Ijmuiden.

The Mate noticed that on arrival at Ijmuiden the vessel was always several inches or more ‘by the head’. Concern was also raised about the manner in which the Nories and Burton’s (must have had a BF man onboard) Tables seemed to develop a life of their own in their movement across the fore & aft Chartroom bookcase.

However, the following considerations were debated:

1. Were the cones of Iron Ore in each hatch actually moving forward by the induced vibration as the vessel was underway. This was discounted as highly improbable.
2. Were the several inches of stripping left in the TSTks and DBTks finding there way to the fore end of the tanks and actually changing the trim. This was discounted as the possible moments involved were not sufficient.
3. Was the ship trying to align itself in the earths magnetic field? A seventy thousand tonne compass needle?

4. There was some reference made to the shift in the position of ‘G’ but this was dismissed as irrelevant.

This was very embarrassing for me as I had onboard a Mate who lost no time in pointing out that the author carried the same UK qualifications as me.

The following month a German Master lost no time in pointing out the real reason for the vessel ‘going by the head’ and that was… let’s hear it Dave, Jimmy and John Cassel?

So gentlemen, was this typical of the type of Senior officer in Bulk carriers. I would like to think not.

Hoping that this style of post generates other similar posts.

Bill

Last edited by Bill Davies; 18th April 2009 at 20:48..
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  #11  
Old 18th April 2009, 23:52
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Bill the problem was more than possible that there was not a lot of fuel forward and that as all the aft fuel including the engine room bunkers were being consumed during the voyage ( hence a forward trim )
If the forward DB's were filled that would decrease the amount of cargo loaded ?? Not very good for a cost effective trip ?

Just a thought . Derek
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  #12  
Old 19th April 2009, 08:53
John Cassels John Cassels is offline  
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Gentlemen , reading this at my oldest sons place in Rotterdam , will think
about the thread on drive back home later today.

One point seems clear , both Narvik and Ijmuiden must be pretty close
to SW...................
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  #13  
Old 19th April 2009, 10:22
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Derek, this is not an operational issue (forget internal transfer) but rather a stability phenomena.

John, drive safely and concentrate on the road, not this problem.

Brgds to you both

Bill
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  #14  
Old 19th April 2009, 15:52
randcmackenzie randcmackenzie is offline  
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Is this the old chestnut about a ship loaded Even Keel in salt water will always go by the head if she sinks in fresh(er) water because the afterbody is more full than the forebody?
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  #15  
Old 19th April 2009, 16:48
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randcmackenzie View Post
Is this the old chestnut about a ship loaded Even Keel in salt water will always go by the head if she sinks in fresh(er) water because the afterbody is more full than the forebody?
Your warm! Emboldened not correct.
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  #16  
Old 19th April 2009, 22:02
randcmackenzie randcmackenzie is offline  
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OK, to be more precise, the Waterplane area of the stern is more than that of the bow, hence a sinkage imparts a trimming moment forward.

Aggavated in places like the first lock in Panama, because the bow is in fresh or super fresh water, and the stern is in salt.
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  #17  
Old 19th April 2009, 22:27
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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[QUOTE=randcmackenzie;313732]OK, to be more precise, the Waterplane area of the stern is more than that of the bow, hence a sinkage imparts a trimming moment forward./QUOTE]

OK.
'G' will not change appreciable on passage and will be the same on arrival as on departure. If one was to argue a change dy/dx would only be in the vertical and therefore would not affect our arguement.
The vessel arrives at Ijmuiden and on entering Brackish water increases her draft by an amount equal to DWA. If the vessel increases her draft she has an increased WP area. Now, when this happens then clearly 'B' changes longitudinally (this is where I said you were warm) and produces a 'trimming moment' BG 'by the head'.


Bill
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  #18  
Old 19th April 2009, 22:39
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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JC,
Apologies for not waiting for you response but randmackenzie was there already.
Brgds

Bill
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  #19  
Old 20th April 2009, 00:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davies View Post
Derek, this is not an operational issue (forget internal transfer) but rather a stability phenomena.

John, drive safely and concentrate on the road, not this problem.

Brgds to you both

Bill
Bill ;
Remember that there is no such thing as a mystery ; either we do not have all the facts or we are interpreting the facts incorrectley. ( I will let you do the spell check )

Derek
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  #20  
Old 20th April 2009, 18:32
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Roger View Post
Bill ;
Remember that there is no such thing as a mystery ; either we do not have all the facts or we are interpreting the facts incorrectley. ( I will let you do the spell check )

Derek
Derek,

You have lost me!

Bill
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  #21  
Old 20th April 2009, 19:24
John Cassels John Cassels is offline  
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Back home safetly . Busy traffic , everyone heading for the coast .

Yes , Roddy is correct regarding the effect of change of load waterline
coefficient due change in density. This will change the CB ( slight shift aft),
However Bill , I do not see that this could have an effect in the situation
as given. As far as I am aware , both Narvik and Ijmuiden are . if not salt
then very close to it. So close that I cannot see that any change in
dock density would have such an effect as was stated.

Roddy´s example of the P. canal is well known but Narvik/ Ijmuiden I´m not
so sure.
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  #22  
Old 20th April 2009, 19:42
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Well John,
I can almost sense you being out of breath. Roddy is indeed correct although the Canal phenomena is unique in the differential.
Narvik from memory varied from 1025 to 1022. If we consider a Panamax loading up there then when she arrives in Ijmuiden say, 1000 - 1005 then one will experience a trim by the head.

Brgds

Bill
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  #23  
Old 20th April 2009, 19:52
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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What views do you gentlemen have on the Mean of Means and it's variables?
There is much to discuss and perhaps we can coax Hugh away from asking embarrassing questions.

Bill
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  #24  
Old 20th April 2009, 20:47
jasmacpm jasmacpm is offline  
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Hi, Bill, so far out my depth (and memory), I was beyond the Continental Shelf, but most interesting and I can just about follow the theory, too. I take it from your original post that you found a colleague/s much in dark like myself?

Regards,

Jimmy.
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  #25  
Old 20th April 2009, 20:56
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
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Jimmy,

I think you are being modest. The author of the article should have known better and was not even gracious enough to admit that he got it wrong. Now, that is what worries me in the context of people working aboard this type of ship which are commonly referred to as the 'workhorses of the sea'.

Brgds

Bill
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