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The picture in #58 does not appear to be a three legger. Looks suspiciously like a centre scavenge at top of picture.
Derek
Derek,
That is exactly what I thougt too, so I mailed this person for an explanation, but no answer yet
Although, this picture from the same ship (Shell Tanker mv BELA) looks like there are 3 starting air valves.
And I believe - I am not sure -, but you must know, that on a 4 cylinder there were 2 sets of 2 starting air valves?
Regards
Alfons
 

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I think Derek is confusing the prefabricated Top-Hat of which they are two in shot instead of the usual cast-steel T.H. and look similar to the scavange pump cowling.
 

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The way I see it, the bottom one in the pic is the usual cast aluminium bottle guide cover while the top one is a fabricated scavenge pump cover.

I must admit I am stumped by the pic of the three air start valves which indicate a three legger. Did any of them have a mushroom scav pump?
I never sailed on one.

Derek
 

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L.S.
I got this answer
"Hi Alfons

Yes that is the top of the scavenge pump which was on the back of the
engine behind number 2 cylinder. The seawater, fresh cooling water and
lubricating oil pumps were directly below, all driven by a rocker arm
from #2 cylinder cross-head. When I started with Shell as a fifth
engineer, I sailed fron New Zealand to Singapore as a passenger on a
Nowegian tanker. It was fitted with a six cylinder Doxford with the
scavenge pump between four and five.

The "B"s were unique in the Shell fleet. They were the only Doxford
engined ships although I understand that there were some equiped with
Doxfords later on when Doxford went onto HVF. All other motor ships in
the Shell fleet ran on HVF but the fuel valves fitted to the Doxfords at
that time wouldn't allow it. Personally I was pleased. HVF wasn't much
fun for the engineers. We had a lot of problems on a Harland and Wolf,
B&W copy, that I sailed on.

I didn't think about it at the time, but in retrospect, 2 spare liners
is a bit much but that's what was supplied. I doubt if they were ever
used. We did a re-ring on number two cylinder and the bore was in good
condition.

Using my images will be fine. Would yu like me to email higher
resolution copies?

Regards

Derek

( I found a picture on Internet concerning the mv Bela Engine Room, I enlarged it and give the Engine a color, so it is indeed a 3-Legged)
Regards
Alfons
 

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The 3cyl. only had a side lever scavenge pump and were in the middles and could not be seen from the tops(as in the photo).The photo. shows the back of the engine tops(no hoses and protection covers).So the mystery deepens.(Center scavenge pump cowlings are much higher than the tops).
BELA /BORUS were a Empire "Intermediate" type.sisters EMPIRE COMMERCE,EMPIRE GAIN (BARBATIA),EMPIRE RUSSELL (BATISSA),EMPIRE CREST (BURSA),EMPIRE CROSS (BALEA),EMPIRE MALDEN (IMPERIAL HALIFAX),EMPIRE GANGES (BOLMA)(AUSTRALITY),EMPIRE ENSIGN (BRITISH DRUMMER),EMPIRE ARROW(BRITISH BUGLER),EMPIRE SENLAC (BULLINA)

View attachment 32478 View attachment 32480
 

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The 3cyl. only had a side lever scavenge pump and were in the middles and could not be seen from the tops(as in the photo).The photo. shows the back of the engine tops(no hoses and protection covers).So the mystery deepens.(Center scavenge pump cowlings are much higher than the tops).
A.D.F and other readers
I fully agree with your sight on the situation
So I asked Derek again, with a sketch, where I showed the direction of the yoke (transverse beam) in red, that it was NOT a Lever Driven Scav. pump.
Here was his answer:

Hi Alfons

The Bela had the lever type scavange pump. The six cylinder Norwegien Doxford had the crank driven pump. The Bela engine was basically laid out as shown. I think that the perspective in the photo is confusing. The top of the pump was lower than it appears. Unfortunately the old photographs are beginning to fade and are not in very good condition now.

I'm not certain about the horsepower but I think that it was around 3000. I could be wrong though. It was almost 60 years ago. I remember that it was similar to the much larger six cylinder B&W four stroke. Much against my wishes I had to give up the sea after 2 1/2 years because my father wanted me to help him start up a Motor and General Engineering business.
Regards
Derek


I give up now!
Regards
Alfons
 

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Alfons asked:
Who can tell more about his experience with the starting assister?

I was on the builder's sea trials of the "City Of Plymouth" out of Appledore Shipbuilders and I believe the problem with the over-enthusiastic dead-band assister occurred during that trial. I can't supply much detail as I kept out of the way, it seemed to me that the Doxford men had enough on their plates without me poking my nose in as well.

I thought it best to concentrate on the Blackstone generators that I was there to look after, but I seem to remember they had quite a bit of bother with flexible pipes failing and covering the job in oil prior to the big bang. The engine was a 58JS2, I believe.
 

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Was the Doxford engines built under licence by John Lewis fitted in the Lammermuir and a coaster and those from Ailsa three cyl?
 

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Was the Doxford engines built under licence by John Lewis fitted in the Lammermuir and a coaster and those from Ailsa three cyl?
Just checked
Lammermuir Eng no284 Not sure this engine was not actually built by Doxford
Trials 12 June 1950.
3 Cly, dia 440mm combined stroke 1440mm
Scavenge pump bore 1250mm x 387 stroke
At 950bhp speed 12.63 knots
At 1030 BHP 13.33 knots
 

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I have posted copies in the Gallery, taken from the Motorship November 1949 which gives a good account of the engine. Built by Doxford and the ship towed to Sunderland for the installation.
I have a little more information if anyone is interested. Thanks to John ( Jack ) Jordan, who kindly gave me this information
Hamish
 

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J.Lewis and Alisa had licenses to build baby Doxfords(medium speed)
(Lew.BEN LUI,CARDIFFBROOK,SOLON)(Ala.CENTURY,NOUTHUMBRIAN PRINCE,RONA,WARRING)
 

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J Lewis Doxfords

Hi A.D.
John Lewis also built a 4 cylinder Doxford. It was a 48. S.B.4 producing 1500 H.P. @ 135 R.P.M. It was fitted to the FAIRTRY one of the first freezer trawler's in 1954. I have search for information of this engine without success.
Regards.
Bill Morrison
 

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Hi A.D.
John Lewis also built a 4 cylinder Doxford. It was a 48. S.B.4 producing 1500 H.P. @ 135 R.P.M. It was fitted to the FAIRTRY one of the first freezer trawler's in 1954. I have search for information of this engine without success.
Regards.
Bill Morrison
Hi Bill I have been informed by A.D. that the ship name on the engine list was originally FAIRTRY and is shown on the list as JOY 18 Eng no 307 if that helps you atall
Regards
Hamish
 

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Alfons asked:
Who can tell more about his experience with the starting assister?

I was on the builder's sea trials of the "City Of Plymouth" out of Appledore Shipbuilders and I believe the problem with the over-enthusiastic dead-band assister occurred during that trial. I can't supply much detail as I kept out of the way, it seemed to me that the Doxford men had enough on their plates without me poking my nose in as well.

I thought it best to concentrate on the Blackstone generators that I was there to look after, but I seem to remember they had quite a bit of bother with flexible pipes failing and covering the job in oil prior to the big bang. The engine was a 58JS2, I believe.
I was Ellerman's Project Engineer for that class of ship built at Appledore. Great ships - shame about the 58JS3s! I had wanted the engine to drive a CP propeller at constant speed but the boss wouldn't have it. I think it was killed by the yard wanting a £45k extra which is a shame as it would have transformed the engine by doing away with the starting assister and probably considerably reduced the piston ring and liner wear problems encountered in service. Interestingly we found that the dead band was not as big as the theory suggested and it was further improved on the second shop when we changed the phasing of the propeller with the crankshaft .
At the beginning of the contract we were badly deceived by British Shipbuilders and Doxfords who told us the 58JS3 was a slower speed(220 rpm) version of the "fully developed"Seahorse. Unfortunately that was totally untrue but it was too late before we found out the full truth. The first engine was over 6 months late and development had to continue with the ships in service .
Perhaps a TM410 or K Major wouldn't have been so bad after all !!
 

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You might want see if there are any old copies of Southerns Marine Diesel Oil Engines about prior to revision 8, mines rev 10 and it only has the LB, P & J types that were around in the 1970's.


It may be worth writing to the Institute of Marine Engineers if they are still around
( when I left they seemed to be pricing themselves out of the market).

Though whether anybody you speak to even knows what a Doxford is. They seemed far removed from when they were first set up or even when I joined in the 1970's, it was becoming very academic with pages of formula in their transactions. There was only John Gray who had a column that seemed in touch with real world. But worth a try, but they would want you to cross their palm with silver.
Back copies of the Motorship, Shipbuilder and Marine Engineer.

Somebody who would have had lots of info was Tony Frost, but he sadly passed over the bar.

Good luck in your endeavours, I sailed with 2 twin 6's an LB and a P type, with BSL, they were an experience that all Marine Engineers should have had.
 
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