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Discussion Starter #1
I sailed with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute for six years prior to retiring and though I served as Chief Engineer in all their vessels by far the most interesting was RV Atlantis ll. Atlantis ll was built in Key Highway Shipyard Baltimore Md. and was originally powered by two 1500 IHP ea Skinner Uniflow Steam Engines. This was prior to my being Chief in her as when I joined the two Skinner Uniflow Engines had been removed and replaced by two General Motors 12 cylinder 1500 IHP ea Two Stroke Uniflow Diesels. The reason I was told for the engine change out I was told was the necessity of using IFO for the boilers in the steam plant and the difficulties in obtaining IFO in the remote areas in which the ship operated. ie: Tahiti and Easter Island etc. The RMD's where gifted to WHOI by the US Navy and they had been built for submarines but never installed in same. We burned Marine Gas Oil in the EMD's and they where simply wonderful. I wish I could say the same for the Trunk Engine Gen Sets made by Caterpillar as the God damned things had a tendency to throw windings on occasion. Atlantis ll was modified to serve as the tender for the deep diving submersible ALVIN (of RMS Titanic fame) and in addition to being Chief Engineer I was also the dive and recovery officer for ALVIN. The ship had been fitted with an elaborate electro hydraulic A Frame Mechanism to put ALVIN in the Ocean and put her back aboard when she resurfaced. The A Frame was made by a Scottish (Dundee) company named Calley Hydraulics who still do a lot of work in the North Sea oil fields. My biggest headaches where always the Cat Generators (Naval Regulations said I had to have two on the switchboard in order to lift ALVIN back aboard (she was about 35 Tons) but on a number of occasions with windings gone we put our blind eyes to the telescope and lifted with only one dynamo and I'm glad I don't have a weak heart as the lights dimming during the hoist operation was simply fascinating.
Respectfully;
Hugh Curran aka beartracks
 

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Re EMDs - did you have to use a special crankcase lub oil on the marine varient of that engine? The locomotive version had silver alloy gudgeon pin bearings and you could in no way what so ever use a lub with a ZZDP (basically zinc) additive as it would destroy the silver alloy in hours.
 

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Hugh,

The Truck Engine Generator Sets by GM (Detroit Diesel V-71's) faired no better. While I was on the USNS Kane the bolts holding the rotor poles broke after an over speed. I had to put plastic garbage bags over the air intakes to shut down the generator. The Roots Blower sucked in the seals so the engine was burning its lube oil after the fuel valves closed, the air damper also was bent from the force of it closing.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re EMDs - did you have to use a special crankcase lub oil on the marine varient of that engine? The locomotive version had silver alloy gudgeon pin bearings and you could in no way what so ever use a lub with a ZZDP (basically zinc) additive as it would destroy the silver alloy in hours.
Ian:

I marvelled at the amount of crank case oil (standard detergent Mobil 40 weight if I remember correctly) we changed out of these engines for no basic reason. The Institute just kept supplying drums of oil and we seemed to change out about every 700 to 800 hours. I later found out that the US Government paid for all the POL . As for special gudgeon bearings this is the first time I've heard that. We had standard oil chemical analysis and used to check viscosity our selves about once or twice a week to look for fuel dilution. I remember changing "power packs" which was a complete cylinder piston . liner crankshaft bearing assembly that renewed just about everything as far as running gear was concerned on a cylinder. All told as I said before there was hardly any problem with those EMDs.
Hugh
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hugh,

The Truck Engine Generator Sets by GM (Detroit Diesel V-71's) faired no better. While I was on the USNS Kane the bolts holding the rotor poles broke after an over speed. I had to put plastic garbage bags over the air intakes to shut down the generator. The Roots Blower sucked in the seals so the engine was burning its lube oil after the fuel valves closed, the air damper also was bent from the force of it closing.

Joe
Joe;

I flat out refused to check the overspeed trips on the trunk engines. I made the Coast Guard as well as the ABS guy put them on a test stand and seal the adjustment after testing. You are right on target there. When I started doing that no more thrown windings.
Hugh
 

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Hugh as Ian says there was a notification from EMD about oil type and use. The zinc used in some oils destroyed the wrist pins and as Ian says they managed it within hours.
Oil use was rather critical on these engines especially if they were working hard. Went to do an inspection on a rig where the manager thought he knew better than EMD about the hours they could run and extended them. Nobody told me about the problem until I asked to see in a locked workshop. Destroyed powerpacks bearings the lot, all spread around the workshop. Then as I had found it they could tell me the story. The manager saved hundreds of dollars per year but his first failure cost many many thousands of dollars. The Chief Mechanic who didnt want to extend running hours kept his job, the manager lost his.
Don
 

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Don and Hugh,

This is a great topic because it really does stress the point that, in general, although Marine Engineers have a thorough understanding of lubrication principles and systems I do not beleive they (we) receive enough education in the actual Tribology of oil and the various formulations etc (Wiki search STLE)

My first ship's engine, an LB Doxford, ran on a vegetable based oil, you could water wash the hell out of it but God help you if you let it "stagnate" in any fashion. From then on regular mineral based oils but some you could water wash others you could not because of the difference in reaction of the addative package.

I've seen cyl oil bulk storage tanks where the additives (mainly the ZZDP and those to elevate the TBN) have precipitated out to a depth of over two feet...that's a lot of additive which should have stayed in suspension.

Anyway, back to EMDs....I guess they could maybe just about run on a straight Mobil oil because (Heck here I go again...) Mobil is such crap oil it probably did not have enough ZZDP in it to hurt those wrist pins.

I wonder what the special stresses were on that engine that required the use of such an exotic alloy to alleviate what sounds like a design weakness.

Love to hear your comments lads....(Thumb)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hugh as Ian says there was a notification from EMD about oil type and use. The zinc used in some oils destroyed the wrist pins and as Ian says they managed it within hours.
Oil use was rather critical on these engines especially if they were working hard. Went to do an inspection on a rig where the manager thought he knew better than EMD about the hours they could run and extended them. Nobody told me about the problem until I asked to see in a locked workshop. Destroyed powerpacks bearings the lot, all spread around the workshop. Then as I had found it they could tell me the story. The manager saved hundreds of dollars per year but his first failure cost many many thousands of dollars. The Chief Mechanic who didnt want to extend running hours kept his job, the manager lost his.
Don
Don;

Talk about a breakdown in communications!! I bought out of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institutes pension plan almost ten years ago and was Atlantis ll's Chief Engineer for about five years and this is the first time I've ever heard of the susceptibility of EMD gudgeon bearings to zinc additives in certain crankcase lube oils. I'm quite certain that this knowledge had most likely been aquiured the hard way by one of my predecessors and somehow had "fallen trough the cracks". I thank my lucky stars that the Lube Oil provided to me was inherently safe for this type engine and that I was never in a situation where I was forced to decide on a type of Lube Oil for the engines I was responsible for.

Respectfully;
Hugh
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Don;

Talk about a breakdown in communications!! I bought out of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institutes pension plan almost ten years ago and was Atlantis ll's Chief Engineer for about five years and this is the first time I've ever heard of the susceptibility of EMD gudgeon bearings to zinc additives in certain crankcase lube oils. I'm quite certain that this knowledge had most likely been aquiured the hard way by one of my predecessors and somehow had "fallen trough the cracks". I thank my lucky stars that the Lube Oil provided to me was inherently safe for this type engine and that I was never in a situation where I was forced to decide on a type of Lube Oil for the engines I was responsible for.

Respectfully;
Hugh
Oh.......!! I beg your pardon Ian I didn't mean to exclude you in our conversation. Since I'm here in Ship's nostalgia again and the Topic is Lube Oils concerning EMD's I'd like to change the topic slightly and refer to cylinder oil for Large Low Speed Diesel Engines. Maersk (AP Moller) saw a profit to be made by providing ships for long term charter to the United States Navy and a sub Corporation was set up to manage these assets. This sub corporation is known as Maersk USA and to my knowledge Maersk USA manages about 55 vessels under American Registry at the present time. A series of Danish Flagged Container Ships were re-flagged a number of years ago and converted to be Maritime Prepositioning Ships to carry all the bombs , beans and bullets a US Marine Corps Combat Brigade would require to engage in combat for a 30 day period. These five vessels were re-named for deceased Marine Corps Medal of Honour recipients and stationed at the US logistical base in the atoll of Diego Garcia on British Territory in the Indian Ocean. Collectively the ships were known as MPSRON 3 ( Maritime Prepositioning Squadron 3) and were under the command of a US Naval Commodore although manned by civilian Merchant Mariners.

The vessels normally stayed at anchor but about once every quarter ( 3 month period) they would depart as a group to engage in "Victory at Sea" type Naval convoy exercises escorted by NATO destroyers. These ships were powered by RND loop scavenged Sulzer Large Low Speed direct coupled engines and after about three years duty it was discovered that ALL FIVE SHIPS HAD SUCH EXCESSIVE LINER WEAR THAT A FULL CHANGE OUT OF CYLINDER LINERS WAS REQUIRED.

When the US Navy acquired these ships it plugged them into its Logistical System and since nothings to good for the boys in blue all US Naval Marine Fuel is known as F-76. F-76 is the MILSPEC for Marine Gas Oil which is the required fuel for GE2500 Gas Turbine Units which are used for most Combatant type ships. The ships used a cylinder oil with a very low TBN number but even that low amount of alkaline additive was not used up since the F76 was so devoid of sulphur additives. The alkaline additives acted just like grinding compound and wore out the liners on all five ships after a running period of not more than 900 hours.

After this discovery the Navy had difficulty finding cylinder oil with no TBN additives and finally got ALF or Mobil to run some off for their special purpose at about FOUR times the cost per litre than Cylinder Oil with alkaline additive. It is my understanding that this "Gong Show" was HIGHLY CLASSIFIED for a number of years after occurring.

Respectfully;
Hugh Curran aka Beartracks
 

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Hugh
I can see why it was HIGHLY CLASSIFIED for many years. Nothing secret about it just trying to protect their jobs and pensions. I suppose it was to much to ask of the engineering experts to ASK Maersk or even Sulzer what sort of oil do you recommend for these engines. After all what would Sulzer know about oil compared to some US Navy engineer who has been in total command of desk propulsion at some office. Communication indeed.
By the way I don't mean this as a slur on US Navy engineers as I have worked with a few, one being the best engineer I ever worked with or even knew. I do however refer to the faceless people who make stupid rules without the knowledge to back them up. Cost of a phonecall 50 cents, cost of new liners for five ships at least 60 cents or perhaps a tad more.
Think you were lucky to get away with the oil use on the Atlantis 11s engines, or had you stayed on the same oil all the time you were there. Heaven forbid you would ask EMD.
Don
Do I sound a bit cynical?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hugh
I can see why it was HIGHLY CLASSIFIED for many years. Nothing secret about it just trying to protect their jobs and pensions. I suppose it was to much to ask of the engineering experts to ASK Maersk or even Sulzer what sort of oil do you recommend for these engines. After all what would Sulzer know about oil compared to some US Navy engineer who has been in total command of desk propulsion at some office. Communication indeed.
By the way I don't mean this as a slur on US Navy engineers as I have worked with a few, one being the best engineer I ever worked with or even knew. I do however refer to the faceless people who make stupid rules without the knowledge to back them up. Cost of a phonecall 50 cents, cost of new liners for five ships at least 60 cents or perhaps a tad more.
Think you were lucky to get away with the oil use on the Atlantis 11s engines, or had you stayed on the same oil all the time you were there. Heaven forbid you would ask EMD.
Don
Do I sound a bit cynical?
Don;

You don't sound cynical at all. In fact you're preaching to the choir. I served in the US Navy in engineering capacities for almost thirty years and unfortunately as an Institution the US Navy has never really completely come to terms with the fact that ships are now propelled by engines and not sails.
In most of the world's big Navies. midshipmen are given a choice to pick either a Technical career path of a Tactical career path early in their Naval Careers. This is why ones sees Engineer Commanders and Engineer Captains and even Engineer Admirals in the Royal Navy as well as most other European Navies. In the US Navy an officer who specializes in Engineering creates a glass ceiling over which he will never rise. There is a Naval Corps of Professional Engineers known as EDO's (Engineering Duty Only) and even these guys hardly ever raise above the rank of full Commander. Most go into the EDO Corps because from LCDR and above they will most certainly spend the duration of their careers in Washington DC at the old Bureau of Ships now known as NAVSEA (Naval Sea Systems). They make friends with Naval Contractors during the Washington DC duty and upon retirement can look forward to lucrative civilian jobs as well as handsome Naval Pensions.

When I was at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute I was asked to serve as the "future operators representative" to SUPSHIPs at the Halter Marine Ship Yard at Passcagoula , Mississippi. NAVSEA had designed a class of Diesel Electric Research Vessels and a number of them were under construction at Halter Marine. I was assigned to oversee the fitting out dock trials and sea trials of RV Atlantis AGOR 25 a Naval Designed and owned vessel to be operated by WHOI. SUPSHIPs (Superintendent of Ship Building Conversion and Repair) is the action arm of NAVSEA (Naval Sea Systems) and provides the overview to insure that NAVSEA specs are maintained. Sorry for all the acronyms but that's how Navies speak to each other.

I recall observing the Power Factor meters indicating a leading power factor when performing load tests on the Main Propulsion Generators and called this to the attention of an Electrical Engineer who represented General Electric Corporation the designers of the system. This fellow was a Brit and very knowledgeable. As I recall he had served as if not the senior at least one of the senior Electrical Officers on the Queen Elizabeth ll. This guy re-affirmed my concerns about a leading power factor during a load test which is theoretically an impossibility. I reported this to the SUPSHIPs Electrical Engineer whose Surname was Wise. Mr. Wise informed me that this was how the system was designed. After this I always referred to Mr. Wise as Mr. Not so Bright. I went to the Lieutenant Commander in charge of the Project who had good survival instincts but like Notsobright was no Rocket Scientist either and told him that this would make SUPSHIPs look extremely foolish and thankfully had VAR meters installed instead of power factor meters and made sure that the wiring insured the VAR meters indicated an inductive lagging reading which is what one expects on a Marine Switch Board.

When the Atlantis ll was formally handed over to be operated by the Wood's
Hole Oceanographic Institute my position morphed from being the "Future Operator's Representative to SUPSHIPs" to the Chief Engineer of RV Atlantis AGOR 25. I could wax philosophical about these matters till the cows come home but for better or for worse that's just how things are Don.

Respectfully;
Hugh Curran aka Beartracks
 

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Hugh
I can see why it was HIGHLY CLASSIFIED for many years. Nothing secret about it just trying to protect their jobs and pensions. I suppose it was to much to ask of the engineering experts to ASK Maersk or even Sulzer what sort of oil do you recommend for these engines. After all what would Sulzer know about oil compared to some US Navy engineer who has been in total command of desk propulsion at some office. Communication indeed.
By the way I don't mean this as a slur on US Navy engineers as I have worked with a few, one being the best engineer I ever worked with or even knew. I do however refer to the faceless people who make stupid rules without the knowledge to back them up. Cost of a phonecall 50 cents, cost of new liners for five ships at least 60 cents or perhaps a tad more.
Think you were lucky to get away with the oil use on the Atlantis 11s engines, or had you stayed on the same oil all the time you were there. Heaven forbid you would ask EMD.
Don
Do I sound a bit cynical?
The problem lies with the Navy and MSC have to deal with the procurement office for the parts and supplies needed. This office then gets a fleet contract for all of the ships in there respective fleets. Then logistics would base the allowance of supplies and parts on board on a formula based on fleet usage. (Not so good when the ships are in reduced operating status most of the time).

I was on a ship that had one other ship in the class. The other ship had a failure of the air conditioning system and was not operating it. The difference in the two ships was I was burning one gallon more an hour of diesel fuel per hour with the 400 ton air conditioning unit on. I had to write a report on why I was consuming more oil to the MSC and the operating company. We also had to berth the crew of the sister ship onboard or pay for their lodging.

Joe
 

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Joe Hugh and Ian Used to work with a chap who had been US Navy's youngest Engineering Petty Officer who at the age of 21 was running one of the engine rooms on a destroyer in or near Vietnam. He was turned down for riverine work as being too valuable but was asked if he wanted to try nuclear submarines. Was told he would need to go to Navy school for 2 or 3 years to learn about boats so quit and joined the oil industry. Worked with him for 5 years so learned a lot of Navy ways and the stupidity mixed with it. You are not alone in that I do believe every navy has it and like everything else it will only get worse. What is the point of trusting a chap that you trained and promoted when you can get an inexperienced chap in an office to tell him what to do.
I do believe my mate would have been an asset on any boat but He just could not handle the school for so long. Had he been given school one year at a time with some seatime he would have been ok, but as they wouldnt change they lost a great guy.
Don
 

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Hugh

Used to do a loat of loadtesting so could you explain your leading power factor problem and what you did to cure it or did US Navy happily except a different meter?
Don
 

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Don and Hugh,

I appreciate the friendly communications, and here are a few thoughts on the Sulzers:

Obviously the loop scavenge engines put a lot more "strain" on cylinder lubrication because of the greater amount of contaminents left after each combustion process. Those engines you mentioned seemed to have been laid up for most of the year and, as you say, the high alkaline reserve in the cyl oil would attack the liner wall without the neutralizing effect of the sulpher (naturally in the fuel and % dependant on what field the original oil came from).

The additive for raising the TBN would not be abrasive in itself, though, if excessive, would not burn off completely and could become abrasive after being subject to combustion heat. The lower the % sulphur in the fuel, no matter what fuel, would require a complete re-assessment of the TBN of the cyl oil to be used.

I don't mean it to sound like I am preaching but I just love discussing lubricants and lubrication.

Was it ever considered to shut off the cyl oil supply from the header tank, drain the lubricator boxes and hand fill with straight C/C oil? Then each day hand crank the lubricators and turn the engine on gear. This would have left the cyl walls/ring pack protected without the high alkaline. Then on starting the engine just re-open the supply from the cyl hdr tank.

Ian
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Joe Hugh and Ian Used to work with a chap who had been US Navy's youngest Engineering Petty Officer who at the age of 21 was running one of the engine rooms on a destroyer in or near Vietnam. He was turned down for riverine work as being too valuable but was asked if he wanted to try nuclear submarines. Was told he would need to go to Navy school for 2 or 3 years to learn about boats so quit and joined the oil industry. Worked with him for 5 years so learned a lot of Navy ways and the stupidity mixed with it. You are not alone in that I do believe every navy has it and like everything else it will only get worse. What is the point of trusting a chap that you trained and promoted when you can get an inexperienced chap in an office to tell him what to do.
I do believe my mate would have been an asset on any boat but He just could not handle the school for so long. Had he been given school one year at a time with some seatime he would have been ok, but as they wouldnt change they lost a great guy.
Don
Don Joe Ian.............The US Navy constructed a class of Amphibious Assault Ships the first being USS Whidby Island. The Navy had and still has a love affair with an opposed piston two stroke engine known as the Fairbanks Morse 38D. The number 38 is for the year the Engine came out . I believe it was originally designed for locomotives but was used extensively in WW2 Submarines and throughout the fleet since then as a generator prime mover as well as main engine for smaller harbour craft. Amidst much wailing and gnashing of teeth it is being replaced in fleet service by Caterpillar 3500 and 3600 Engines because the latter can meet the new stringent emission standards. The Navy wanted the new class of "Alligators" to be powered by GE 2500 gas turbines but were told by the General Accounting office in Washington DC that Gas Turbines were out of the question for Amphibious Assault Ships because they burned far to much fuel and ordained that the new ship be powered by Commercial Medium Speed Diesels. Fairbanks Morse tried to expand their Opposed Piston 38D to a larger IHP model to meet the new requirements. The new ships were on the ways with bed plates for these new OP engines already constructed and it was found out that the newly designed engines wouldn't meet ship design standards. The Navy had Fairbanks Morse by the short hairs as they had a contract for an engine and Fairbanks Morse couldn't deliver same. In desperation Fairbanks Morse/Colt Industries became the Licensee for SEMP Pielstick and each of this Class of Amphibious Ships is fitted with Four 15000 HP Colt -Pielstick PC2 Engines.

I was one of about twelve marine engineers who were and still are assigned to make passages on these ships and attend RAVs (restricted availability ship yard maintenance periods) as well as certify Engine Inspectors to attend these vessels. Years ago when serving as a young Lieutenant Junior Grade on ATC Tango Boats on the waters of the Mekong Delta in Vietnam I became a master of the understatement. When something so frightening and horrible would occur , something that would literally paralize one with fear as well as horror. I would (afterwards of course) refer to the incident as having been FASCINATING. I tell you this because most if not all of my mentoring experiences with the US Navy's Whidby Island class LSD's (Dock Landing Ships ) have been far more FASCINATING than anything I ever came across in South East Asia.

Respectfully;
Hugh
 

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Hugh,

One of the better aspects of my present job is that I have a whole bunch of different generation prime movers to manage:

Cat diesels up to 6,000 hp
Enterprise diesels up to 9,000 hp
FM diesels up to 2,500 hp
Various small diesels up to 1,000 hp
Solar Combustion Turbine 8,000 hp
Twin Pelton type Hydroelectric 15,000 hp each
Going on line this year 3 GE Wind Turbines 2,000 hp each

I mention this because the FMs are damn ugly, smelly, dirty, smoking S.O.Bs and I try not to run them at all. Favorite diesel would be the Enterprise (De Laval) DSRV 16-4 7.2MW at 420 RPM, 30 years old and still more fuel efficient and reliable than the latest 36/16 Cats. Also the Enterprise(s) can be endlessly re-built whereas the Cats have to be thrown away after 50,000 hrs.

The relevance here on SN though is that I love my hydros, just like a ship going backwards!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hugh

Used to do a loat of loadtesting so could you explain your leading power factor problem and what you did to cure it or did US Navy happily except a different meter?
Don
Don;

RV Atlantis had a twin drive z drive power train with the z drives being run by two stabilized shunt 750 volt DC Motors. The Motors were energized by two GE Rectifier Drives with a constant 600 Volt poly phase input and a 750 volt to 0 Volt DC output. There were two main switchboards one the Propulsion Board which accommodated Three 1500 KW / 2000 KVA Propulsion Generators and would supply up to 4500 KW of Propulsion Power to the Switch Board. The second major Switch Board was the Ship's Service Board which would accommodate Three 750 KW /1000 KVA Gen Sets. The Ships Service Gen Sets could be put on the Propulsion Board but the Propulsion Generators could not be placed on the Ships Service Board. Clean Power for Scientific Functions were provided by power from two motor generator 400 KW ea Units. Those big rectifiers certainly would chop up the Propulsion AC Power. The pattern on an ocillieo scope resembled a rip saw rather than a SINE wave.

The indication of a leading power factor of .75 was caused by a wiring mistake on the GE wiring diagram. The mistake was rectified (that's not a pun} and I prevailed to SUPSHIPs to Install KVAR meters in Place of the existing Power Factor meters as the var units gave the operator a much more precise indication of load sharing. I believe the Designed .75 Power Factor was the result of the big Rectifier Drives being in the system as NEMA calls for a Design Power Factor of at least .80. Once all the kinks were done away with the system worked fine and the vessel ran with an unintended engine space.

Respectfully;
Hugh Curran aka Beartracks
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hugh,

One of the better aspects of my present job is that I have a whole bunch of different generation prime movers to manage:

Cat diesels up to 6,000 hp
Enterprise diesels up to 9,000 hp
FM diesels up to 2,500 hp
Various small diesels up to 1,000 hp
Solar Combustion Turbine 8,000 hp
Twin Pelton type Hydroelectric 15,000 hp each
Going on line this year 3 GE Wind Turbines 2,000 hp each

I mention this because the FMs are damn ugly, smelly, dirty, smoking S.O.Bs and I try not to run them at all. Favorite diesel would be the Enterprise (De Laval) DSRV 16-4 7.2MW at 420 RPM, 30 years old and still more fuel efficient and reliable than the latest 36/16 Cats. Also the Enterprise(s) can be endlessly re-built whereas the Cats have to be thrown away after 50,000 hrs.

The relevance here on SN though is that I love my hydros, just like a ship going backwards!!!!!!
Ian.....I'm quite happy we met here at Ships Nostalgia since I'm embarking on a new "Golden Year" career as an Insurance Company Surveyor at Power Plants and large Paper Mills here in Northern New England. Nothing but HIGH PRESSURE and HIGH TENSION. I also teach Marine Engineering at a Middle School here in Maine. I never did like golf or tennis and for the most part foot ball bores me. I hope you stck around. I'm sure you'll receive some plantive pleas for me now and then.
Warmest regards;
Hugh aka Beartracks
 
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