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Discussion Starter #1
Not wishing to reopen previous thread but thought that an interesting headline from Reuters news was worth sharing.

It appears that after Brexit the EU have decided that the remaining population should be consulted on the way forward for the Union.
The paper states that it will help to bring democracy and any results from the investigation could be used to change policies and treaties.
Maybe both sides of this fiasco will/are learning from this announcement.
Davie
 

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They're scamming the citizens of their members.
All of those people, and I include the highest in our land, think 'the people' are fools.
 

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But it is not only those whom direct the ship of state that we consider to be qualified only by experience (ie not qualified) instead of by some form of tested competence but also many or most of those that do the voting of them in.

(Sorry I could not resist rising to such an obvious piece of bait).
 

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But it is not only those whom direct the ship of state that we consider to be qualified only by experience (ie not qualified) instead of by some form of tested competence but also many or most of those that do the voting of them in.

(Sorry I could not resist rising to such an obvious piece of bait).
Do you mean we're forced to vote for the least bad option? (In our individual personal opinion, of course ;) )
 

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"Forced to vote". An odd choice of phrase, Basil (but I don't disagree that sometimes that is the choice given those who wish to do so).

Anyway, no, nothing as benign. I see nothing wrong with only those who have raised themselves above the base line being eligible to vote. Of course we cannot go back and do that now (perhaps enfranchising only net tax payers, journeymen, those with some minimum educational achievement, those serving in the forces etc, would have been more sensible). We are not even allowed to exclude the imprisoned criminal from the ballot box any longer (or the hustings) since the ECoHR declared that such a ban would have to be specified in the sentence.
 

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But it is not only those whom direct the ship of state that we consider to be qualified only by experience (ie not qualified) instead of by some form of tested competence but also many or most of those that do the voting of them in.

(Sorry I could not resist rising to such an obvious piece of bait).
***mings via Boris has announced his intention to ability test Civil Servants and put an end to the merry-go-round of promotion and job shifting - GOOD

Would that similar measures be applied to the occupants of both Houses in the Palace of Westminster.
 

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Whilst I agree, that is simply putting the clock back. I have cuttings of the Great Uncles results in the Civil Service exams. One didn't then serve unless of tested ability (unless we take the term to include the equally essential road sweepers, a contextual argument).

The First Baron of wherever would have, indeed, gotten his HoL seat on merit (or in the days where Groom of the Stool was considered of national importance 'Royally perceived merit'). I am not sure that those who followed in those families were not more likely to be worthy of national regard than those who got their seat by loyal partisan scheming in the lower house. In the same way that the Kray family were s*** from the early 19th century. Nurture accounts for a lot. Many great servants of the state and society were scions of early ones (Churchill, Parsons, Douglas-Home to name but some less ancient ones).

Perhaps I must disagree about the HoC. Being one (of course) to whom I would give a vote I would not choose to vote for other thasn competent candidates. But that would not be democratic. We had a convicted arsonist in 'senior' politics here for many years. Not his fault (and he didn't perform dreadfully either). Suffrage I see as the problem although competence of the candidates is the other side of the same coin.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
That word competent is very interesting. Does it mean you have a fist full of qualifications and see a right to something or are you time served and have experience of everyday life in the required situation.
Davie
 

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The UK, and especially, the Democratic Unionist party was promised there would be no border down the Irish Sea and that there would be no extra forms required.
Then Stephen Barclay (the Brexit Secretary) told us that forms would be required even though it is a domestic trade route. However, he said that these forms would be a 'Simple Straightforward” do***ent that Northern Irish businesses would need to complete to send goods to Great Britain. But not to worry, Boris Johnson told business leaders that they could throw the form in the bin.

Now it appears that this straightforeward simple do***ent, that could be thrown in the bin, is a complex form that includes 31 data elements (of which 29 are mandatory). In addition it now appears that businesses can be fined for any errors in filling the form.

Welcome to the 'real' world!
 

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That word competent is very interesting. Does it mean you have a fist full of qualifications and see a right to something or are you time served and have experience of everyday life in the required situation.
Davie
Horses for courses I think. For a technician, a combination of both underlying tested knowledge and the practice of is the ideal. In the absence of one or the other I would choose proven education as the essential, the practice is something relatively easily provided. Of course there are situations where one cannot afford to have anything but both together - one wouldn't want a surgeon having his first solo outing without guided practice under the belt as well as knowing where the bits and pieces were once he had cut.
 

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The UK, and especially, the Democratic Unionist party was promised there would be no border down the Irish Sea and that there would be no extra forms required.
Then Stephen Barclay (the Brexit Secretary) told us that forms would be required even though it is a domestic trade route. However, he said that these forms would be a 'Simple Straightforward” do***ent that Northern Irish businesses would need to complete to send goods to Great Britain. But not to worry, Boris Johnson told business leaders that they could throw the form in the bin.

Now it appears that this straightforeward simple do***ent, that could be thrown in the bin, is a complex form that includes 31 data elements (of which 29 are mandatory). In addition it now appears that businesses can be fined for any errors in filling the form.

Welcome to the 'real' world!
Is this the "I told you so" thread where we show that leaving the EU is BAD, so very BAD!
 

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Is this the "I told you so" thread where we show that leaving the EU is BAD, so very BAD!

enzoneo, For you there is no 'bad'; you have what you wanted 'control and sovreignty'.
For those who expected 'red tape free' trade (even within the so called 'United Kingdom') the reality is not what they were promised.

Putting our future prosperity into deals with a 'special relationship' doesn't even run to getting a US housewiife accused of dangerous driving returned to face trial. Just lose weight, so that when the US shouts "JUMP!". you can show how well you can do it.
 

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enzoneo, For you there is no 'bad'; you have what you wanted 'control and sovreignty'.
For those who expected 'red tape free' trade (even within the so called 'United Kingdom') the reality is not what they were promised.

Putting our future prosperity into deals with a 'special relationship' doesn't even run to getting a US housewiife accused of dangerous driving returned to face trial. Just lose weight, so that when the US shouts "JUMP!". you can show how well you can do it.
I agree about US housewife - so much for special relationship!

I also agree with Enzo. This could be a long thread!!

JJ.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Can I attempt to bring my original post back into focus, it seems to being lost.
Has the EU realised that it has become impossible to take the population forward using the original dogma of quietly creating something by false info.
Bearing in mind that when the EU was created non of the present methods of getting info out quickly existed.
According to the statement, they propose to create democracy and use the results to amend or change the original rules.
Or has been suggested another slight of hand on their part?
Davie
 

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Are the aeroplanes going to be flying next weekend? Additional chaos on the motorways?

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)
 

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Looks like fishing rights will be used as a bargaining tool in a deal to protect financial services. Another promise down the drain. Bye bye Scottish Tories. I see that the Scottish Labour Party are proposing to cut all ties with the Labour Party in London and to back the SNP. The fun is only just beginning. Happy Burns night.
 

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I am not sure if anyone in the debate here thought that the Eu administration was not in dire need of reform. It now seems some realisation of that has dawned on it. Whether Cameron tried hard enough or not is moot. What is certain is that we can have n direct influence on its improvement (I presently believe that that would be good for us as, now a foreign trading partner of the EU, for it to be less fat and more healthy without it becoming a vehicle for oppression of those trading partners or for the rise of individuals with megalomaniacal ambitions. That is despite it necessarily favouring its own position over ours).
 

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"oppression of those trading partners or for the rise of individuals with megalomaniacal ambitions"

Thought you meant the USA.

🙂
 
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