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Discussion Starter #1
At first I thought this must be some sort of huge topsail schooner.
But she appears to be a 5 masted barque.
Some spars have been lowered to act as derricks.

The name is the Carl Vinnen of Bremen and since the photograph was taken in 1935 or thereabouts I suppose that's the standard German ensign of the time.

Does anybody have any history for her?

Most sites about 5 masted barques or sailing ships in general appear to ignore her altogether. (==D)
 

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Hi there Marconi,

CARL VINNEN was one of five sisters built by Krupp 1921/2 for F.A.Vinnen of Bremen.
GRT 1827, 261.8' x 44.3' x 19.1'. An auxiliary oil engine was fitted. Sisters: ADOLPH, CHRISTLE,WERNER & SUSSANE (all VINNEN).

These ships are described by Underhill in Deep Water Sail (pp261) as " two-topsail schooners, a rig which at one time was also known under the alternative title of main-topsail schooner & used to be seen in small wooden two-master schooners". He also comments "this was a bold effort to produce a new rig which would have the maximum driving power with a minimum of cost in both upkeep of gear & also the size of the crew necessary to handle it". These ships were rigged with fore & aft sails on all five masts but with square top & topgallant sails only on the fore & mizzenmasts & not on the main, jigger of spanker masts.

I don't know where you will have to go to find out the histories of these, Certainly the maritime museum in Bremerhaven would have something. The Last of the Windjammers, Vol II - The Deep Water Sailing Ships, 1888-1928 by Basil Lubbock may well have reference to this class.

Good Hunting.
Tony
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks Ray
That's another mystery solved. It was a huge topsail schooner after all! Because the pic is taken so close I couldn't be sure about the spars. She certainly looks impressive at the site you linked.
That explains why she isn't listed with the 5 masted barques.

Thanks also Tony
Being that the biggest thing I ever sailed was a jolly boat the rigging on these things gives me a headache just looking at it. Sheets, trucks, royals, et al are to do with beds, motorways and Buck House, aren't they?
I suppose if you were a ship owner who could get your wind for free but had to pay for coal or oil any experimental rig that would give you an edge over the motor fraternity was worth a try.

Thanks again both (Thumb) (Thumb) (Applause)
 

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Hardly a 'HUGE topsail schooner' Fubar, if you recall, according to the song, the Irish Rover had 27 masts and was rigged fore and aft. Mind you, she came to a sticky end.

John Trem
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Irish Rover

In the year of our Lord,
Eighteen hundred and six
We set sail from the fair Cobh of Cork
We were bound far away
With a cargo of bricks
For the fine city hall of New York.

In a very fine craft,
She was rigged fore and aft
And oh, how the wild winds drove her
She had twenty-three masts
And withstood several blasts
and we called her the Irish Rover.

There was Barney McGee
From the banks of the Lee
There was Hogan from County Tyrone
And a chap called McGurk
Who was scared stiff of work
And a chap from West Meade called Mellone.

There was Slugger O'Toole
Who was drunk as a rule
And fighting Bill Casey from Dover
There was Dooley from Claire
Who was strong as a bear
And was skipper of the Irish Rover

We had one million bales
Of old billy goat's tails
We had two million buckets of stones.
We had three million sides
Of old blind horses hides,
We had four million packets of bones.

We had five million hogs,
We had six million dogs
And seven million barrels of porter
We had eight million bags
of the best Sligo rags
In the hold of the Irish Rover.

We had sailed seven years
When the measles broke out
And the ship lost her way in a fog.
And the whole of the crew
was reduced to just two
Twas myself and the captain's old dog.

Then the ship struck a rock
With a terrible shock
And then she heeled right over,
turned nine times around,
and the poor dog was drowned
I'm the last of the Irish Rover (K)

Attached is more what I had in mind for comparison
 

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I am sure that the Chieftains sang 27 masts, I must dig out my old records, but then, I was usually as drunk as they when I listened to it, so you may well be correct.

John Trem
 

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Discussion Starter #8
John

Not meaning to dispute your memory. You're probably right.

I cheated and cut and paste that from a folk song site.

If I remember rightly the number of masts was directly proportional to the quantity of alcohol consumed. Must be a formula for that somewhere.

My party piece during "Sing, Sing or show your....." sessions was always "On Ilkla' Moor baht hat" 'cos I could remember it even when reduced to singing from a foetal position in the host's wardrobe. (K)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Either that or under the sink John

Don't forget I was a relative late comer and "officers" had such luxuries.
 

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Sahib, I am probably gonna get shot down for this but the vessel in the thumbnail, could that be a brigantine??? (retires to aforementioned fetal position under Workstation and awaits with trepidation)..........................pete
 

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All a matter of language I suppose really Fubar. As per another thread running re Masters versus Captains. I always considered myself an Apprentice then Masters Mate, or Mate, (Jawan Sahib to the Laskar sailors) but many preferred to be Cadets or even Midshipmen, and then Navigating Officers. To be fair I cannot think of the RO ever being anything other than RO, but as a bridge watchkeeper I would never have dared to wake him up to communicate by lamp to another ship. (Re a comment of yours on another thread, but we had P & O RO's, perhaps Marconi Marine were a different breed?) In any case, Sparks was generally in a drunken stupor, even when on watch (That should elicit a stream of defensive abuse)

I served my time with Trident Tankers, and with ex P & O OR BI ships we had some of the best fitted out tankers afloat, but I always considered the place where I kept my kit as a locker, even if it was (as on one ship I sailed on) walnut veneered.

I think that the same applies to your comment re 'Brigantine' really Pete. I have seen so many various descriptions of vessels rigging, horse trappings and vehicles (another of my time consuming passions) that I have come to the conclusion that, before the age of rapid communication, and certainly before the Victorian desire to 'categorise and pidgeon hole' everything, each village had its own local variation or description.

Viva la difference

John Trem

PS Is there a spell check on this site? I like to be correct but I am getting lazy especially when it comes to standing up and reaching for the dictionary which I keep on the very top shelf!!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Pete
It may well be a brigantine. I haven't a clue. The description is from the chap who took the pic (see comments to Convoy Forming? in my gallery). I love sailing ships of all descriptions but I can only just tell the difference between a Junk and a dhow. Anything with more than 2 masts must be a clipper ship, right?
All that rope and if you look at my pics of pamir getting under way you'll see little people hangin' on to the spars. What they doin'? I watched a small clip on some site this afternoon of the Staatsrad Lehmkuhl (apologies for the spelling) in a heavy sea and thought yes very romantic but I'm glad I didn't have to do that!
Come out from under there immediately and resume the proper position on top of that upturned rosie. Just throw the empty beer cans out of the win... oops.. porthole, scuttle, whatever. (Ouch)

John
Everything we say here is open to be interpreted by the reader using his own set of morals and preferences which is why we sometimes make mistakes and offend people. Just the language nothing else. This is why the smilies and the abbreviations are an excellent idea. Takes the sting out of anything we say.
If the Old Man wanted to be the Master rather than the Captain that was always fine but he was never the Skipper that I can remember. Cadets were the lowest form of human life, except in certain companies where that honour was accorded yours truly, so they got called whatever anybody felt like calling them. They were probably treated worst of all by the third mate who was only one step away from being back in their ranks again anyway. There I go again. Third mate, 3rd officer, Chief, Chief engineering officer what's in a name. The first articles I signed I was the only officer on board. The Radio Officer was the only one that signed on as such and that had been like that since the first sparks sailed to sea. Everybody else was a mate, or an engineer or an electrician, or a chief steward. It took best part of 70 years before every one else became officers. This was not something one bragged about if one wanted to live. (*))
I never had a locker other than to keep the emergency batteries in so I suppose I lived in luxury during my seadays.
No defensive abuse. All I ever saw of other sparkies was when I relieved them abroad or they relieved me. I suppose we all thought exactly the same of each other in both cir***stances. I only ever did one trip of unremitting drunkenness and was thankful to get a large tanker next trip on which to dry out. It really was one of those trips that was leading down the slippery slope.
I don't know about P&O sparkies but I do remember a lot of ribaldry aimed at P&O in general like the toast I posted previously in a thread and some comments about carrying swords. (EEK)
In general Marconi Sahibs were outsiders because we had no shipping company loyalty. I always felt grateful when I was accepted as just another one of the lads but sometimes it was a bit of an uphill struggle.
I don't half carry on a bit don't I. Plus I have to re-read it about 20 times before posting to make sure I haven't made a faux pas. AR or what? Time for another cuppa (Fly)
 

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I've not yet worked out how to add amusing icons Fubar, I shall investigate it. My comments are intended as 'robust humour' rather than insults.

My father was a sparks, albeit in the Army, as was my brother, in the RAF (Well somebody has to be in the RAF) I always put a sparkies mental state down to all the funny dit das in their ears. I am sure in this day and age of nanny state and litigation, such noises heard through headphones are banned.

I tend to ramble on as well, sorry.

John Trem
 

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Discussion Starter #15
John
Just click on the little doo-dads to the right of the "Reply to Thread" screen and a happy smiling face, or not, will be inserted at the end of the text. Same goes for the extra little window that pops up when you click [More].
Add the little blighters as you go along otherwise they all appear at the end of the text no matter where you try to put 'em.
You have to be pretty sharp at "cuttin' and pastin'" if you want to add them afterwards.
I've just discovered that you can add pictures in the text rather than just as attachments.
They shouldn't tempt old sinners like me with such goodies! (*))
Cheers
 

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I enjoy reading your posts Marconi Sahib, very funny. I have to disagree with you about the lowest form of human life being Cadets. I was a Blue Funnel deck boy (Peggy) and it don't come any lower than that. I cried on my first trip, 1952, but I stuck it out as my mother said that I wouldn't like it(she didn't want me to go to sea). I stayed just to prove her wrong. It was a real learning curve as the saying goes nowadays.

Lots of bullying went on in those days, believe it or not. I could tell you a few stories. As I said, I stuck it out and did 38 years at sea so I must have enjoyed it in the end.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the compliments (K)
I was 14 years after you Trader so things had bucked up a bit.
Being "above decks" as it were we didn't see too much of what went on "down below" when we weren't looking.
I used to get bawled out every so often for spending too much time with "the crew" and I suppose I was pretty lucky to sail with some reasonable blokes. Even my first as junior sparks with Hungry Hogarth's. Apparently nobody wanted to sail with us so the Old Man had to go up to the pool in London and line up all the bods nobody else wanted. What a great bunch of lads. We lost most of 'em in various ports around the world. Mostly Kiwi where jobs were easy to come by. I nearly jumped myself which would have been a life change of some magnitude but I'd only just started so it was no go.
Used to top up with DBSs that the Aussies were chucking out.
I used to hate going back to sea and was homesick and miserable for about a week before it wore off. Grew out of it in about my 10th of 11 years.
If I'd gone as a deck wallah, either above or below it, I can imagine that I might still be there but being a sparks was a bit of a dead end and we didn't last mentally very well. Either that or drank ourselves to death. (*))
 

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Discussion Starter #20
John
Doo dads are anything that I can't find a technobabble word for.

I you scroll down to additional options below the text window the second box shows attach files. Click on the button that says "Manage Attachments" and one of those little extra boxes pops up on your screen. Use the browse button to look through your files until you find the one you want and double click on it. Beware. The pic can't be more than 800 pixels wide by 600 high or it'll get rejected and you get one of those nice red warning thingies (another technical term I'm sure you'll understand). That means that the pic mustn't be bigger than that in either direction. In other words if it's tall and skinny like I used to be it mustn't be more than 600 pixels high and if it's short and fat like I am now it mustn't be more than 800 pixels wide. If its accepted it comes up as OK and you can close the window. It then shows up as part of the main page.

Takes a bit of experimenting and frustration and banging of head on keyboard but you'll get it right in the end (Thumb)
Now back to watching Willy Wonka on the box. C U L8R
 
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