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I have managed to accquire a few old flags over the years and I used one recently when scattering ashes at sea. At the request of the widow of a former Blue Star Engineer, the Pilot launch crew very kindly allowed us to fly the old Blue Star flag at halfmast. It meant a very great deal to her and the family.
Peter4447
 

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Mac, re Shaw Savill House Flag

Hello Mac,

As an ex Shaw Savill man, I go along with your comments. They appear to be true. Regards, Terence Williams. R538301.
 

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The Brocklebank & Bibby comments about the A & B burgees are interesting but the question then arises why, in the pre 1932 international code, were C, D, E, F & G represented by pennants? Couldn't have been for the same reason as the same flags were nominated as numerals 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 in 1932.
Tony
 

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House Flags and Company Colours

Stag Line had a black funnel red band with a white trippant stag.
House flag red with white trippant stag.
A trippant stag is the crest of a North Yorkshire branch of the Robinson family and was adopted as the house flag.

We boarded the pilot for Philadelphia Christmas Eve 1965. When the pilot came on the bridge he asked the Captain if the funnel had been done up for Christmas.
 

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Does Anyone Know Where I Can Find A List Of Butterfield & Swire Ships Sunk During The Second World War?
 

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Paddy Hendersons house flag which is the French flag with the Union Jack in the middle was I believe allowed because henerson carried french troops to the Crimear (spelling sucks I know) Funny I only heard this lately and I sailed with them in 1961
Ed,
I served my time with Paddy Henderson (58-62). I'm surprised that the Company has so little representation here, because they had quite a few ships back then.
The ships weren't the greatest but the Company was alright. I particularly remember a super - Captain McWinnie - who would often take a ship round the coast. He was a gentleman of the old school. Can't remember who was the senior super but I did meet him and he too was a good man.
John
 

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Hi all. I have a small book picked up in Canada entitled, Flags, funnels and hull colours by Colin Stewart. Unfortunately it has no ISBN number so I can't quote it.
In regard to the Shaw Saville/ Maori flag, they are similar but not identical. Although it could originally have been an SS flag that was modified. From memory one of the differences is that the Maori flag has five point stars and SS has more , Regards Ronnieseven or eight.
 

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Not sure about this Tonga but somewhere in the vague and distant past, I seem to recollect a story that one of the earliest Houlder vessels was named 'Knights Templar' or something along these lines, which gave rise to the use of the Maltese Cross. Will make further enquiries.
Regards
Peter4447 (Read)
An unlikely theory as the Knights of St John were Hospitallers not Templars.
 

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Hi Lancastrian
The truth behind the origins of many funnel marks and houseflags will, sadly, never be known and are open to speculation.
If Houlders did have a 'Knight Templar' as one of its earliest vessels then the cross and colours (albeit reversed) could have been adopted at the whim of the Houlder family.
A similar example of this is the blue cross on the white band used by Headlam and Son. They initially used a red cross on a white band which is the flag of the Red Cross and is derived from the reversed colours of the national flag of Switzerland. Because of possible confusion Headlam and Son were asked to change their colours which they did by adopting a blue cross.
Other stories abound but are they fact or fiction? Cunard red is supposed to have originally been the red undercoat used on the hulls of its vessels. Alfred Holt's blue funnels are supposedly to have come into being when some tins of blue paint were found on a vessel he had purchased.
Coming more up to date a gentleman asked me only last week if I could identify a MN cap badge that had been in his family for years - a blue ensign with a gold horizontal anchor. It turned out to be the RFA having been authorised for use in 1922 by AFO. Subsequently in 1974 the anchor was changed to vertical.
Fortunately in the case of this cap badge do***entary evidence exists but sadly the origins of so many MN flags and funnels have disappeared in the mists of time so that we can but speculate on possible reasons for their adoption by those shipowners of yesteryear.
Regards
Peter(Thumb)
 

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No prizes for the origin of Salvesen's house flag. It is the centre portion of the Norwegian national flag on a white background.(Thumb) (Pint)
 

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Re: Salvesens.
And the national colours were also on the funnels - red with white band and blue top.
Although they have long since been out of shipping, until quite recently we used to have Salvesen lorries on our roads carrying the Houseflag. Sadly even these have now been repainted and the old Houseflag has been removed.
Peter4447
 

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Hallo;
For Company House flags I use this site not always correct but very good useable http://areciboweb.50megs.com/fotw/flags/x~hf.html.

Also http://library.mysticseaport.org/initiative/ImPage.cfm?BibID=11061&ChapterId=1 is very useful.
Other sites are
http://pavillon.houseflag.free.fr/index.html
http://flags.seeleute.net/

Reference books are
Browns Flags, Funnels, Brown, Son & Ferguson, various years.
A Survey of Mercantile Houseflags and Funnels, J. L. Loughran, Waine Research, 1979. Authorititive work.

Regards
Henk Jungerius
 

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It was once suggested by some business guru that D.K. Ludwig would benefit from a house flag and even a funnel logo. The design was thrown open to all employees within NBC.
One individual (identity never revealed) submitted a sketch of 'Two Fists stretching a rubber like Dollar' - as if wringing the last cent out of it.
This was of course a reference to D.K. Ludwigs philosophy on austerity.
I heard from one of the VPs that it did manage to bring a very very slight smile to an otherwise unemotional face.
However, nothing changed. Black funnel and thats it. No logo.
Bill
 

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Yes Peter it is sad that Salvesens no longer display the house flag on their trucks. Do the Bibby trucks still display theirs? (We don't see many in Cyprus!) Still see the odd Safmarine container with the houseflag on it.
 

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Despite P&O being mentioned in the first post of this thread I think Pompeyfan must be busy as he hasn't chipped in yet.

Their 'garish' flag recognised the company's original service to the Iberian Peninsular of Spain and Portugal in the 1840's. Red and yellow remain the colours of Spain and the Spanish Royal Colours. Portugal nowadays, of course, have red and green in the flag but 150 years ago blue and white were the colours of the Portuguese Royal flag.

When the Admiralty contract to carry mails to India and beyond was granted the Peninsular Steam Navigation became the Peninsular and Oriental S.N. Co.
Probably uniquely amongst UK shipping companies P&O was never a Ltd Co or Plc but was incorporated by Royal Charter signed by Queen Victoria on the last day of 1840. The Coat of Arms awarded to P&O then has a shield with the house flag colours and superimposed on it are four beasts to represent Britain (lion), India (elephant), China (dragon) and Australia (bottle of Fosters).

Now, I guess it needs a Big Mac or a bar sinister to reflect its Miami ownership.

Ian
 

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Yes Peter it is sad that Salvesens no longer display the house flag on their trucks. Do the Bibby trucks still display theirs? (We don't see many in Cyprus!) Still see the odd Safmarine container with the houseflag on it.
Bibby trucks are still on the road.I see at least one every working day,and still carrying the gauntlet and dagger!
 

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Two other well-known Companies I recall that proudly displayed the Houseflag on their road tankers were William Cory and F T Everard.
Any others?
Peter4447
 

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P&O's original Armorial Bearings contained no reference to Australia but contained "quarters" which depicted England- i.e. Britannia in the first quarter; India- the Elephant in the second quarter; Egypt- the pyramids and camel in the third quarter and China/Asia with three pagodas in the fourth quarter. Placed in the middle of the shield was an escutcheon depicting - though it's very hard to see - an ancient ship and above the escutcheon the P&O flaming demi-Sun.

In the mid-1930s, in a move to assure Australia(ns) that Australia meant a lot to P&O, and to act as a defence to those in Oz who decried the overseas ownership of shipping companies that did not employ Australian seamen... very political... the College of Arms were asked to design new Arms to represent the Company's Australian and Asian Interests. So, as Ian6 rightly says, the new shield contained the colours of the P&O Flag with England's lion at the top of the shield; the Asian Dragon at the bottom; the Kangaroo of Australia on the Dexter and the Indian Elephant, sinister. The Kangaroo always looks very cramped...with its tail kinked!

I'll attach a copy of each of the arms for comparison.

When a junior at P&O in Melbourne - and in the post room where all or most juniors started - one of my tasks every morning was to raise the P&O Houseflag. (We were the Managing Agents in Australia for P&O, BI, E&A and AUSN Cos) and to take it down each evening. I was taught a simple rhyme to make sure that the flag was hoisted correctly:
Blue to the mast, Red to the Fly, Yellow to the deck and White to the sky!

(Ian) Dulcibella
 
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