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"That's not fantasy, that's facts"

Confirmed.
Many did the GOC at Wray Castle.

We once had a very senior Master of B.P. take the course.
Physically big guy..... every inch an "old school" type.
Very quiet......no complaints....."stoic" would have been the perfect description.
He completed the course successfully and hated every second of it.
I think his views of the R/O onboard had probably changed dramatically.

I was too scared to ask.

:)
 

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The elephant I saw in IEC 60092-509 is that basically it does not change the status quo. The person doing the maintenance MAY be 'certificated'. He may also be an 'instructed person', so at best trade oriented, acting under the control of a qualified person (there are three levels I cannot remember the designation of all of them). So basically one can rely on the Chief's certification as qualified and carry on as you were without worrying about the competence of who you choose to have for the work (or choose not to have) or have someone with a tested level of competence. The only real difference is that the testing of that (lower) level of competence is now enshrined in STCW as has been the Chiefs since Fleming.

My previous outfit had one of the very first young lads to gain a proper ETO ticket, this being around 2011. I remember when he joined that myself and the Chief had a good look at his ticket as we'd never seen one before.
At that time everyone assumed that all the time served men (leckies) and the handful of ex sparkies still around would receive ETO CoCs based on sea service.
I believe that then changed, because all of a sudden the youngsters straight out of their cadetships who had ETO tickets were of course referred to as ETO on the crewlist/articles, whereas everyone else ceased being ETO's and they then gained the new title of "Systems Engineer".
Pay scales are the same for both ranks, but the older boys were understandably rankled about the change. Especially since some of them weren't that old (20s/30s/40s) and were in fact time served electricians who knew far more about electrics and electronics having served a proper 4 year apprenticeship ashore than our new ETO cadets ever learnt during their 2 and a half year cadetship which only included 6 months of seatime.
That's progress apparently...
 

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No can prefer a trained and educated man over one only educated however give me an educated man over an uneducated and trained man every time (of experience to provide the missing, we could provide. In spades)

Of the E/Os I had the pleasure to sail with as of 1971 the majority had been recruited on as only monkey see monkey do type apprenticeship/ journeymen (mines and gas board being notable exceptions).

I agree it was unfair to penalise any of the old hands, It was not their fault they had been 'the norm' for those that used them then.
 

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Roger, my take would be:

Competence tested by exam at a level of further education. If not as part of formal further academic education then at the very least questioning of the necessary 'underpining knowledge'.

It became fashionable to simply test for 'competencies' and deliberately exclude formal testing knowledge except for that specifically required for the competency being tested (for instance radar maintenance) although I do not really remember any of these being introduced. More to do with the education 'industry' than for conventional college education so that everyone could get a fair bite at the cherry.

Your full tech would xxx I suggest, have been difficult to pass without formal education (in house or otherwise). My industrial electronics T5 as delivered by South Shields in 1975 was not a full tech as we did not take T4, instead taking the almost simple T3 in electrical engineering in parallel with it. Bound up in a specifically maritime MN Training Board 'AMEC'. I guess the T3 was perceived to correct any weakness an R/O might have in the area of rotating electrical machines.

Even then the most useful (to both me and my employers) was the three or so hours a week under an ex-CEGB engineer Mr. Innes (spelling) much of the rest was to have something with which to test us. The level of learning required for the job is not high but the key is 'required'. Little it may be but essential it is.

David V
 

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I cannot for the life of me understand why any R/O would want to visit the engine room except to uplift distilled water for the batteries. who in their right mind would want to spend time messing around in the heat, grease and noise below the water level when you could have been initially an uncertificated 4th mate enjoying the peace and quiet and fresh air from the bridge. Wonders never cease.!
 

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Going back to the mid '90s......I lost count of the number of masters/mates who openly admitted they got so hacked off with HF DSC distress alerts being received they just......

"Switched it off"
Oh yes....I remember a Master telling me (with my official hat on) that he switched off the VHF and HF DSC during a tricky pilotage, as the alarms were just too distracting....

I agreed with him - to his amazement....(Jester)
 

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I cannot for the life of me understand why any R/O would want to visit the engine room except to uplift distilled water for the batteries. who in their right mind would want to spend time messing around in the heat, grease and noise below the water level when you could have been initially an uncertificated 4th mate enjoying the peace and quiet and fresh air from the bridge. Wonders never cease.!
Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.

It was quite enjoyable...
 

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The problem was that once we moved into the 21st century near the 10th anniversary of GMDSS I started to increasingly notice shore stations doing exactly the same. Not many years before those same shore stations would have been the first to jump on any operator flouting procedures or causing mischief.
Yes, sad, but true...there were not many traditional coast stations left by that stage...

When we ran training courses as part of a new coast station install, we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area.
 

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#147 I found over time that it paid to have a good working relationship with the 2/E. Occasionally there were bits of welding and other metalwork that benefitted from the attention of a fitter, and likewise the e/r sometimes ran into problems as their faults became electronic rather than purely mechanical. Also the engine room was an interesting place to look round as a contrast to the rest of the ship.

However, visiting and occasionally helping out was one thing. Being under the direct authority of the C/E, 2/E was something else entirely and the loss of autonomy that was part of the R/O's job was to me undesirable - but happy to have done it at all, another world, and much missed.
 

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"we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area."


The c/s operators were not GMDSS qualified?
 

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"we gave them chapter and verse on the perils of HF relays...and basically told them to shut up unless it was in their SAR area."
...and, further to this - they were told that if they had to relay, to address the call to a radius around the distress position - so only nearby ships would get it...

That's how the system was intended to work.
 

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I'm a bit confused here Troppo.
Were the coast station operators qualified to GOC?
It sounds more like a new install quick handover briefing.
 

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Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.

It was quite enjoyable...
The only bridge relief I remember was as Leckie. Not so much for the meal itself but for its peristaltic disposal. 'Big' Pete Roberts, London Team, Master relieving Mate for hold/tank cleaning. Although he was not far (the Bridge crapper was only two doors away) it was the Straits of Messina! Chinaman on the wheel me glued to a spot in front of radar - no target went unworried over.

The only other time I remember, in close waters anyway, was meal relief for the third mate, aft (I think), on Tilapa going through the Panama Canal. The only time I have worn my uniform cap in anger.
 

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I'm a bit confused here Troppo.
Were the coast station operators qualified to GOC?
It sounds more like a new install quick handover briefing.
No, it was a proper Coast Station course.

A lot of places were very tardy in implementing GMDSS, and didn't make the 1999 deadline...
 

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Oh yes...at one stage, I was going to retrain. Did a lot of understudy time on the bridge, to the point I was doing meal reliefs (in open ocean..with no traffic...) and anchor watches.

It was quite enjoyable...
Hi Troppo did you get your second mates and if so how long did it take?
 
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