[Philthechill]

The headlong rush by this Country into tackling air-polution has, among its many strictures, ruled that by 2040 no petrol or diesel cars will be produced.

The obvious 'replacements' will be 'electric'.

THIS brings me round to the title of this Thread!

No.1 Those millions, (presumably), of cars are going to need charging-up at regular intervals. Where is the massive amount of power going to come from? Current (No pun intended!),, thinking has coal/gas fuelled power-stations being trashed with their replacements being wind/solar. There's no way they will be capable of coping with the power requirements 24 hours a day.

No.2 THEN we come to motorways! How on Earth will Service Stations be 'wired-up' to have enough power-points for the many vehicles needing 'topping-up'?

No.3 Will there be such a vehicle, in that 'Electric Land' of the future as the HGV?
Currently, (!), there are no 'electric-commercials', i.e. HGV's (40 tonners), and I would think it's doubtful there will ever be an electric vehicle of that weight. Admittedly I'm thinking about the technology of today and by 2040 electric-power will have advanced way-beyond how it is today.

Well chaps, WHAT do you think? Am I seeing problems which won't exist or am I 'on-the-ball'? Phil

 

[Robert Hilton]

Phil, I think you are seeing politicians subscribing to ideas that they think will make them look good and making promises they can't keep.

 

[ART6]

Already happening:

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/daf-electric-lorry-delivered/

And in the shipping industry:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-06/battery-powered-ships-next-up-in-battle-to-tackle-emissions

I wonder, in the case of HGVs, how much the weight of the battery pack reduces the available cargo capacity? And if a fast charger takes half an hour to charge a car, how long would it take to charge an HGV? Or, for that matter, a large ship?

Long way to go yet I fancy!

 

[sparkie2182]

Great questions Phil

I have been asking them myself........but have found them to be very unfashionable at the moment.

It's a world of wishful thinking these days.

 

[oilkinger]

Things are moving faster than you think. Volvo already has electric trucks on the road and customers are buying them.
Model FL 16 tonnes. Model FE 27 tonnes.
And they've had fast charging electric buses on the road since 2015.

A few interesting stats ;
Volvo electric trucks are 3-5 times more energy efficient than equivalent diesel trucks.
Range 300km. ( with today's technology )
A 4MW wind power plant generates enough electricity to drive 200 electric trucks.
One full turn of a wind turbine rotor moves a truck 1.5km.
An electric truck saves 2500 cubic metres of fuel per year. ( not forgetting all the electricity saved by oil refineries in not having to distill all that dieso and petroleum )

For a good article on this, and a schematic of the truck layout, go to ;
www.volvotrucks.com.au/news/magazine-online/2018/dec/electric-transition.html

 

[jimg0nxx]

Hi Phil, you do not have to look very far to find a city where the buses are electric powered. Only few miles from you is York where for some years the Park and Ride buses are electric and from October this year 21 new double-decker buses will be in operation. Buses today - trucks tomorrow?

 

[Philthechill]

Fair enough---

Things are moving faster than you think. Volvo already has electric trucks on the road and customers are buying them.
Model FL 16 tonnes. Model FE 27 tonnes.
And they've had fast charging electric buses on the road since 2015.

A few interesting stats ;
Volvo electric trucks are 3-5 times more energy efficient than equivalent diesel trucks.
Range 300km. ( with today's technology )
A 4MW wind power plant generates enough electricity to drive 200 electric trucks.
One full turn of a wind turbine rotor moves a truck 1.5km.
An electric truck saves 2500 cubic metres of fuel per year. ( not forgetting all the electricity saved by oil refineries in not having to distill all that dieso and petroleum )

For a good article on this, and a schematic of the truck layout, go to ;
www.volvotrucks.com.au/news/magazine-online/2018/dec/electric-transition.html

---oilkinger re. Volvo and their electric trucks but, like electric buses, they are for urban use rather than, as I meant, long-hauls.
"One full turn of a wind turbine moves a truck 1.5km, (as, being an old f1rt, that's .92 of a mile!)". That is, of course, when there is a wind! No wind sfa power!
Another thing too! As the car/truck/bus batteries will have a finite life what is going to happen to the millions of such when they have reached the end of their 'life'?

Certain parts will, probably, be reusable but there will, doubtless, be tremendous amounts only fit to be scrapped----but where to 'scrap' them?

The 'problems' will far outweigh the 'benefits'!. Phil

 

[Engine Serang]

Nissan Note runs out of petrol, silly me, dark night, pissing it down, miles from anywhere, phone the AA and half an hour later he arrives with a jerrycan of unleaded.
If I was in a Nissan Leaf, battery, how would I have gotten home? Can a battery be charged from another car? If so is a special Shore-Supply cable needed? I'm all at sea.

 

[IDH]

Phil

David MacKay had some interesting observations on this topic You may appreciate this TED talk (he has done others too)

On HGV's have a look at Nikola, Thor truck, the eHighway, Toyota, Wright Speed as well as the Volvo, DAF and Teslar already mentioned (and look at Volvo's Vera). There are a host of LGV's and PSV's too. Hydrogen looks like the way to go for heavy goods vehicles. Less weight than batteries so more payload and fast refuelling times.

Capacitors have been used for PSV;s and can charge in 30 seconds (Capa vehicles) Ok if the timetabling is right, no use if two or more turn up at the same time which is quite likely. In London there are some bus stops servicing 8 or 10 different routes.

 

[IDH]

Oh forgot this one too

https://newatlas.com/automotive/edumper-worlds-biggest-ev-dump-truck/

 

[jmcg]

How will the lost revenue from fuel taxation benefit the Treasury?

No doubt the pollies will find a way to tax the use of electric m/c.

BW

J(Gleam)(Gleam)

 

[Philthechill]

As I pointed-out----

Hi Phil, you do not have to look very far to find a city where the buses are electric powered. Only few miles from you is York where for some years the Park and Ride buses are electric and from October this year 21 new double-decker buses will be in operation. Buses today - trucks tomorrow?

---to oilkinger, Jim, electric buses and trucks are for urban use and not for 'long-hall'.

Buses, despite their size, aren't really heavy so their 'charge' probably lasts quite a long time with, no doubt, charging-points at the terminus.

Trucks, on the other hand, ARE heavy and that weight will 'drain' quite quickly.

I've no doubt, in the years before 2040, 'answers' will be found to my presumed 'problems' and vehicles of all kinds will need charging-up after covering 500 miles and take the same length of time, in so-doing, as filling a car with 15 gallons of petrol/diesel.

Maybe! Phil (*))

 

[callpor]

The headlong rush by this Country into tackling air-polution has, among its many strictures, ruled that by 2040 no petrol or diesel cars will be produced.

The obvious 'replacements' will be 'electric'.

THIS brings me round to the title of this Thread!

No.1 Those millions, (presumably), of cars are going to need charging-up at regular intervals. Where is the massive amount of power going to come from? Current (No pun intended!),, thinking has coal/gas fuelled power-stations being trashed with their replacements being wind/solar. There's no way they will be capable of coping with the power requirements 24 hours a day.

No.2 THEN we come to motorways! How on Earth will Service Stations be 'wired-up' to have enough power-points for the many vehicles needing 'topping-up'?

No.3 Will there be such a vehicle, in that 'Electric Land' of the future as the HGV?
Currently, (!), there are no 'electric-commercials', i.e. HGV's (40 tonners), and I would think it's doubtful there will ever be an electric vehicle of that weight. Admittedly I'm thinking about the technology of today and by 2040 electric-power will have advanced way-beyond how it is today.

Well chaps, WHAT do you think? Am I seeing problems which won't exist or am I 'on-the-ball'? Phil

Phil,

Take a look at FEE.ORG and their recent article "41 Inconvenient Truths on the "New Energy Economy"". It's causing a bit of a stir!

Addresses what you are saying. It's a politicians dreamworld in which they can make grand pronouncements about events in 30+ years, when most of them will have left office or be dead.

Chris

 

[Ron Stringer]

My concern is that because governments are pressing ahead with battery-electric vehicles as their preferred option to reduce CO2 emissions, they are rushing us down a dead-end road, rather than keeping our options open.

Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are a definite option, needing a far lower-cost infrastructure and, having extracted the energy needed for propulsion, expel only steam/water from their exhaust pipes. They also avoid having to carry around a battery weighing almost as must as the rest of the vehicle. Such cars are being made in small quantities at present but their wider adoption is held back by the lack of a wider infrastructure (in the UK restricted to parts of the Home Counties) and the high cost of the fuel cell in small quantity manufacture.

There are many articles on the internet which offer an insight into the possibilities of creating the hydrogen from off-peak or surplus to requirement electricity that would otherwise be unused (wind turbines and photovoltaic solar panels generate electricity whether there is demand or not). Refuelling a vehicle would take place at filling stations in much the same way and in the same time as topping up with gasoline, diesel or LPG - just another pump. Have a look here as a sample.

No need for the current massive investment in a nationwide electrical network of plug-in points at home, in carparks or at the street side.

No need to carry several hundred kgs of battery around with you in your car.

No fumes or pollution whatever.

As I said, my concern is that the politicians will distort the market and, having created demand for a massive investment in roadside electrical charging points, discourage the progress of hydrogen power for use in vehicles. Rather like the VHS/Betamax argument but with far more important outcomes for the world.

 

[Varley]

Ron, I'm surprised the article does not go on to say that hydrogen could be most easily stored and distributed as ammonia. Then being converted back into hydrogen and nitrogen onboard and then using either fuel cell or internal combustion technology for converting it into roadworthy kinetic energy.

I cannot immediately find it but there has been recent developments in a more efficient production process for ammonia.

A collision with hydrogen might easily produce a bleve. An Ammonia escape would be very toxic. Which risk do you want to manage.

 

[oilkinger]

Phil - the data I listed was "today's technology" and we all know the quantum leap that's taking place in this area. I'm sure the wise boyos at Volvo are not going to kill off their lucrative truck business because they haven't got a long distance 40 tonner in the pipeline. Maybe rail will have to take up this long haul stuff in the interim.
Yeah - sometimes there's no wind, but the electric generating mix includes solar, hydro, tidal race, wave etc.
If you look at the daily weather map here in Oz you will see that vast areas are bathed in sunlight, ditto for wind, ditto for rain and tides twice a day everywhere.

Cost savings. Do freeways in UK/EU have sound barrier walls ? Here in Oz they are massive, and seemingly endless. Must cost a couple of million bucks per kilometre. Not needed with E/vehicles.
Traffic tunnels are fitted with numerous large extraction fans to exhaust toxic fumes. Very costly to instal and big electric bill to run them. Not needed anymore.

And I bet all those people that live on major urban arterial roads, that are chokkers with noisy traffic that is keeping their property values down, will rejoice with the advent of E/vehicles.

Don't worry about the loss to gov't revenue. They'll make it up in other ways - they're good at that stuff. Probably the only thing they are good at !

 

[ART6]

Folks, the Mess Deck is really for maritime-related matters and, at the moment, it is being used for posts related to cars and trucks none of which have ever put to sea in my experience. The only post on maritime issues is mine. Therefore this thread is in danger of being moved to the Pig & Whistle or even Stormy Weather if it becomes political. (Thumb)

 

[Ron Stringer]

A collision with hydrogen might easily produce a bleve. An Ammonia escape would be very toxic. Which risk do you want to manage.

A collision involving a car carrying a tank of hydrogen is likely to have no more negative consequences for the occupants than if the tank contained gasoline or diesel. The consequences for the environment would of course be far more positive since only water would be released.

 

[Philthechill]

When I left----

Ron, I'm surprised the article does not go on to say that hydrogen could be most easily stored and distributed as ammonia. Then being converted back into hydrogen and nitrogen onboard and then using either fuel cell or internal combustion technology for converting it into roadworthy kinetic energy.

I cannot immediately find it but there has been recent developments in a more efficient production process for ammonia.

A collision with hydrogen might easily produce a bleve. An Ammonia escape would be very toxic. Which risk do you want to manage.

---'The Merch' I joined a firm of Industrial Refrigeration Engineers.

Ammonia (NH3), was widely used as the refrigerant in various 'food' factory's, ice cream, breweries, poultry and bacon processing etc. etc. as it is very efficient, cheap to produce and harmless to the environment. Unfortunately the same can't be said for its toxicity for **** sapiens!

Having had a long association with ammonia I am VERY interested in anything to do with it----bizarre or what!!!!!

If ammonia was being carried in a car as a source of the "hydrogen-fuel" it would be 'housed' in high pressure bottles to maintain its 'liquidity'. Ergo those bottles would be made from steel and thick-walled. There would be a vulnerable part and that would be the 'take-off' valve but it could be well-protected so that, in the event of an accident, it wouldn't be sheared-off.

The only problem I can envisage is the amount of NH3 you'd need to transport to give a reasonable 'mileage'.

I'd LOVE to read that article if you CAN locate it! Phil

 

[Ken Wood]

Aberdeen have been running hydrogen fuelled buses for a few years now. Also at least one haulage firm there are changing to hydrogen fuel.

Remember the trolley buses, which were replaced by diesel buses, and are now going to be replaced by electric buses? Funny the way the experts seem to get things wrong. Or is it just down to cost?