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Sailing without charts

8K views 73 replies 46 participants last post by  gas_chief 
#1 ·
The Dutch Transport and Water Management Inspectorate has authorised a new general cargo ship (Wagonborg, 3,990 grt) to entirely dispense with paper charts and rely solely upon her advanced electronic navigation system. I cannot see why. What are the advantages of this change? The electronic systems must be far more expensive than paper charts and electronics can fail. What are the members views?

Fred (Read)
 
#2 ·
Thought it inevitable that this would come about. We old hands are thinking all about the "what ifs", but the smart new boys are probably thinking that the new technology is so proven that they are going for it now whatever! Digital charts must be so reliable by now anyway. I expect that back-up systems will be in place?
 
#3 ·
Total horror, just cannot imagine this one. I presume they will be utilizing a GPS system with this. There will surely have to be a system whereby corrections can be downloaded. I know the GPS system is fantastic but it is always prudent to have a backup. Can deck officers still use sextants and take stars etc or are modern ships totally reliant on the new technology?
I am sure some of our deck side will reply on this one. Also please dont take that as an insult, I know some seem to misread the written word.
Regards
Hawkey01 (Fly)
 
#4 · (Edited)
Belt and Braces!

I enjoy sailing and have just bought a bigger yacht which the family intend to venture further afield on. Whilst she has a fixed GPS, an independent Chart Plotter, hand held GPS and AIS receiver I won't dispense with the traditional Nav Aids.

Unlikely as it is, my dread is that the boat's electrics fail and I would have to rely on my hand held GPS with an adequate supply of batteries. More paranoia - what happens if GPS Selective Availability, which was eliminated in May 2000, is turned on, or the whole satellite network fails?

In addition to the electronic gizmos, she carries an Admiralty chart folio for our intended sailing area, electronic log and echo sounder, Walker's log, steering compass and hand bearing compass. Personally I wouldn't rely totally on electronics although, if used correctly, they are magnificent Nav Aids. "Aids" is the key word - a bit of “proper” navigation and DR work never goes wrong!

Old fashioned or not, I can't help feeling that anyone who totally dispenses with traditional Nav Aids, or just as bad, carries them and doesn't practice their use, is tempting fate!
 
#6 ·
Fred,

I presume that a full risk analysis was carried out before that decision was taken. I would be interested in seeing that do***ent.

Whoever completed it must have made a number of assumptions including an extremely low rate of predicted failure of the satellites. I wonder how they would fare in a war situation - presumably they could be knocked out? And is it beyond possibility that they could be affected by some kind of adverse atmospheric effect or a large sunspot.

Seems irresponsible to me not to have what must be a relatively cheap fallback in the form of charts.

Is the thinking that you can save money on skilled navigators because you just look at the gizmos, type in the coordinates of where you want to go and leave them to get on with it?

Full automatic control on the Docklands Light Railway requires an act of faith when you sit in the front seat and there is no driver. But a large ship?

Brian
 
#63 ·
It is also a very useful negotiating tool during trade wars. "He who laughs last, laughs longest".

What about insurance? presumeably those who take the risk do not class it as such. I've never known any of these people to actually and knowingly take a risk!
 
#8 · (Edited)
Shaun Jones

Electronic charts show you where you are as opposed to where you were a few seconds or minutes ago. The accuracy and reliability is so good that it is inevitable that we will go down the paperless bridge route. Sooner the better................all your chart corrections on a CD-ROM that can be down loaded over INMARSAT. The future is Electronic soon to be followed by virtual navigation. All the concerns about turning off in war time etc are acknowledged but I feel totally overblown. Steam replaced sail and the world did not stop turning so electronic charts will replace paper charts.(Thumb) (Applause)
 
#10 ·
Interesting comparison with sail and steam Shaun,

But you omitted to say that early steam ships were built with masts and sails as backup in case the engines failed! Of course in time these were phased out but have we reached the same level of confidence with Satnav systems? I really don't know but would always err on the side of caution.

What is not clear from Fred's opening posting is whether the ship will have its own electronic charts that could be used for navigational purposes if the satellite system was lost. Electronic charts available on computer screens, providing that they were sufficiently resilient, and kept track of the course while the Satnav system was operating, would provide an equivalent - and probably better version of what is on paper charts. There would still be a need to plot your course based on your last known position and the usual forces of tide, power and wind. Whoever was navigating the ship would need to know how to measure these factors and feed them into the system. If that can be achieved then the paper charts are less critical.

I am certainly not a Luddite - my job depends on the ongoing development of computer systems - but they do go wrong. Thank goodness they do or I would be unemployed.

Regards,

Brian
 
#13 ·
Shaun Jones said:
Electronic charts show you where you are as opposed to where you were a few seconds or minutes ago. The accuracy and reliability is so good that it is inevitable that we will go down the paperless bridge route. Sooner the better................all your chart corrections on a CD-ROM that can be down loaded over INMARSAT. The future is Electronic soon to be followed by virtual navigation. All the concerns about turning off in war time etc are acknowledged but I feel totally overblown. Steam replaced sail and the world did not stop turning so electronic charts will replace paper charts.(Thumb) (Applause)
As one of the old school, I hate to admit it but you are entirely correct. Once again we are twenty odd years behind the aviation industry and they operate at 500 knots.
 
#14 ·
Don't expect me to comment on navigation, I was a steward at sea. Officers and Engineers may become redundant with the new technology taking over but have they invented anything to make your beds for you? or, more importantly a cup of tea or coffee? That is a tongue in cheek comment guys! I am amzed at the size of the modern ships that sail now with such small crews! I mean the MV Surrey of about 8000 tons had something like 4 deck officers plus the skipper and perhaps a couple of apprentices. How many engineers did she have? it must have been 8 or 9 I think. I was the engineers steward for one trip and I recall engineers, refrigeration engineers, electrical engineers plus the Chief. Not to mention a heap of A/B's and O/Seamen and 4 Assistant Stewards, 2 Stewards Boys plus Pantry Boy and Galley Boy. The total crew numbered something between 50 and 60 I think. Peter Steele
 
#17 ·
Hamish Mackintosh said:
Hey Guys! What about airplanes,never seen a chart room on they babies,nor seen the second pilot on the wing with a sextant (Hippy)

When ever I have sat next to a pilot he/she has had a paper chart folded on his/her knee and a loose leaf book with a sheet of the airport he/she his heading for. Those pilot cases that they lug around are full of paperwork.

Fred
 
#20 ·
fred henderson said:
When ever I have sat next to a pilot he/she has had a paper chart folded on his/her knee and a loose leaf book with a sheet of the airport he/she his heading for. Those pilot cases that they lug around are full of paperwork.

Fred
Here and I thoukht it was their lunch(airlines are cutting back)Seriously tho I remember when I was taking my pilots licence the nav class was much the same as the maritime ones, but back then there was no radar either,(well there was but not as we know it today.)my point was the pilot can board a 747, punch in the co-ordinates of where one wants to go and the plane will do the rest.or so I was told at the last airshow I attended
 
#21 ·
Hamish Mackintosh said:
Here and I thoukht it was their lunch(airlines are cutting back)Seriously tho I remember when I was taking my pilots licence the nav class was much the same as the maritime ones, but back then there was no radar either,(well there was but not as we know it today.)my point was the pilot can board a 747, punch in the co-ordinates of where one wants to go and the plane will do the rest.or so I was told at the last airshow I attended
On this side of the pond, all the air charts seem to have blue print and show the air corridors. The pilot will punch in the co-ordinates of the first junction and when the aircraft arrives there, he will then will punch in the data for the next, but the co-ordinates come from the paper charts.
It may all be changing, I am not a pilot. It is possible that the paper charts are only used to impress the punter who has chartered the biz-jet!

Fred (Thumb)
 
#22 ·
David Wilcockson said:
The days of crewless ships can`t be far off being a reality, if not already in practice.
David (Night)
David, I could not disagree with you more. Take for example, the recent grounding and sinking of the British Columbia Ferry Queen of The North. The enquiry is ongoing, however BC Ferries have stated that there were no mechanical problems with the vessel. This vessel had just cleared Grenville Channel southbound into Wright Sound, where an automatic alteration to port is called for. (I traded up this coast in the early 70,s and am familiar with the area.) She did not alter course, but proceeded across Wright Sound, and hit Gil Island. Now what went wrong with the modern nav.aids here? Unfortunately (being one of the oldies) I believe that a sense of complacency must have played a part in the minds of those on watch. My point is, had the watchkeepers been keeping a proper lookout, this accident would have ben avoided. Colin,
 
#23 ·
Shauns hit the nail on the head, Electronic charts are the future.
As regards concerns over their fallability, of course nothing is 100% but they now have most avenues covered.
The Admiralty Hydro Office have been experiementing with the paperless system themselves, using a couple of Freddie Everards coastal tankers as guinea pigs.
Each ship would have two independant ECDIS systems, with two separate power supplies etc. In the event of power failure, each system has an Uninterruptable power Supply which runs on batteries or suchlike, and provides power for a set number of hours (may even be a whole day). Also, although the ECDIS uses GPS, almost all systems these days can and indeed often are linked up to the LORAN-C system. Should that all fall flat on its face, you can input positions manually, by typing in the lat and long on the keyboard or using the range and bearing tool on the screen.
Re Selective availability, although that is a concern, its very unlikely the Yanks will reintroduce it, also remember that GPS will be superseded in years to come with the new European Satellite System, theres always GLONASS (the Russian system) and indeed the Chinese have started launching satellites for yet another system.
Chart corrections for these things are an absolute doddle. You can literally have EVERY chart for EVERY stretch of water on the planet on this machine, which you of course cant do with paper charts. The corrections are either posted to the ship on CD or you download them from an email onto a floppy disk, which you then put in the machine, press a few buttons and within seconds the corrections are done.
Manna from heaven for the 2nd Mate!
 
#24 ·
The problems with electronic charting systems are more to do with failure to recruit and adequately train competent navigators to use them. Nothing is foolproof, but if systems are monitored by personnel with sufficient training, failures will be picked up.
Employing poorly trained screen watchers will lead to disaster (again and again).
Professional pilots spend a lot of their time in highly expensive simulators training for the moment when the systems will fail.

Dave M.
 
#66 ·
Having seen the installation of the latest standard ECDIS set up , I could not agree more. Whist being excellent systems the problem is that you can spend two hours training a monkey to drive one and get away with it. This problem of insufficient training has been with us for years and have in reality made the misuse/misunderstanding of the limitations of systems like GPS common place. I would not wish to go back to the days of steam. I do However think that Shipping companies being what they are will continue to induce some very bad incidents with regard to these systems.
The worst of it is having people promoting this stuff who whist wielding the power seem completely ignorant on the real skills required to safely navigate a ship. My particular pet hate is the bloke who comes to fit this stuff, casually nails the GPS antenna in the wrong place, puts the monitors where you can't see them and then pontificates about the marvelous capabilities before strolling of the ship . This kind of behavior will I fear lead to tragedy.
 
#25 ·
Shaun Jones

Plutoglory said:
The problems with electronic charting systems are more to do with failure to recruit and adequately train competent navigators to use them. Nothing is foolproof, but if systems are monitored by personnel with sufficient training, failures will be picked up.
Employing poorly trained screen watchers will lead to disaster (again and again).
Professional pilots spend a lot of their time in highly expensive simulators training for the moment when the systems will fail.

Dave M.
Dave

You are so correct. Although a big fan of ECDIS and WECDIS, I am worried that it will open the door to "screen watchers" and you end up with "monkey see..monkey do" personnel who don't know what to do if/when the system crashes. Therefore, a very robust regime of maintaining core navigational skills must be in place e.g using sextants on open passage, maximising coastal navigation methods, practice of secondary methods etc. The trick is to ensure that the training is seen to be required otherwise you just hack people off for no good reason.

(Thumb)
 
#26 · (Edited)
Hamish, Pilots do use paper charts as pilots on this board will tell you,they are called jeppesen charts and they come in a book size.
Not too long ago pilots were still using the sextant in the bomber aircraft,they were a little smaller than the sea-going type. Now its dial in your grid co-ordinates and the doppler Nav system will take you to the spot.
 
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