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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All;

Wonder if any of you can identify this 'ancient' United Fruit "Banana Boat" dockside at New Orleans way back when.

It has to be what was termed "Mosquito Boat". Has Norwegian Flag, and strange to see a Stream Type Anchor on the hawser.

Would be interesting to know more about her.

Cheers,
Rory
 

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Rory

It could be the Agnella, Norwegian, 1910 chartered for New Orleans - Livingstone - Puerto Cortez route, 1916 out of banana trade renamed Sollund.
 

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It may be hard to pin her down.
United Fruit at times chartered up to fifty or sixty Norwegian ships a year.
The relationship between United Fruit and Norwegian shipping companies lasted for over fifty years.

Bruce C
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Norwegian Boat

Thanks Guys;

I found something I thought was on shore, but appears to be on the Bridge of this old timer. It is not English, but does not seem to appear as a "Mosquito". However, let us take a "Wild Shot". There was a Mosquito named OREGON, but it does not appear to be that one although this vessel could date from 1890 also.

I don't know if you can see the caeved wood name, but it is ORIGEN.
Rory
 

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Rory_P_OConnor said:
Thanks Guys;

I found something I thought was on shore, but appears to be on the Bridge of this old timer. It is not English, but does not seem to appear as a "Mosquito". However, let us take a "Wild Shot". There was a Mosquito named OREGON, but it does not appear to be that one although this vessel could date from 1890 also.

I don't know if you can see the caeved wood name, but it is ORIGEN.
Rory
Nearest name they had to that Rory was
Oregon 1890 Norwegian, ex-Sama, 1919 chartered to UFC, sold and renamed St. Thomas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
ORIGEN vs OREGON

That's the Wild Shot I spoke of, but could it have happened? I believe it could, and probably did. I know this sort of thing happened all the time with other things like locomotives and such.

All of the chartered vessels are supposed to be accounted for in "Going Bananas", and there is no ORIGEN to be found.
Rory
 

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Banana boat

We have had many strange names on Norwegian ships, but ORIGEN just does not make sense. (EEK)
Knut
 

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Rory_P_OConnor said:
That's the Wild Shot I spoke of, but could it have happened? I believe it could, and probably did. I know this sort of thing happened all the time with other things like locomotives and such.

All of the chartered vessels are supposed to be accounted for in "Going Bananas", and there is no ORIGEN to be found.
Rory
Rory, the 'Origen' is mentioned, in passing, at the bottom of page 275 in "Going Bananas".
Confusingly, in the same paragraph, there is also mention of the 'Oregon'.

A portion of said paragraph reads as follows:
"........The biggest passenger carriers among the "Mosquitoes" were the Norwegian flag ORIGEN, TAUNTON, PRESTON, and ELLIS and the German flag BAKER, BOUND BROOK, BRADFORD and BREWSTER. The OREGON, a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899 had room for 20 passengers..........."

"Going Bananas"
Mark H. Goldberg
American Merchant Marine History Series
Volume III
The American Merchant Marine Museum Foundation
Kings Point, New York
1993

Bruce C
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The Riddle Resolved?

Bruce you are a genius.

I too have Mark Goldberg's book "Going Bananas", but have really only worked in the section regarding the specs for ships in rear of book.

Taking your quote from page 275:
"........The biggest passenger carriers among the "Mosquitoes" were the Norwegian flag ORIGEN, TAUNTON, PRESTON, and ELLIS and the German flag BAKER, BOUND BROOK, BRADFORD and BREWSTER. The OREGON, a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899 had room for 20 passengers..........."

Then looking at the description that begins with Oregon as above we get:
Oregon, Preston, Ellis, Baker, Bound Brook etc. etc in the same exact order as the first part. Except
ORIGEN has become OREGON

How do you see it, Bruce?

Cheers,
Rory
 

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The mystery deepen.

ORIGEN may have been chartered by UFC, but certainly did not belong to that company. Judging by the funnel and flag it is most likely that ORIGEN`s owners were John P.Pedersen & Son,Christiania.
Then today I found hanging on the wall of a friend dealing in paintings, antiquities and junk, a painting of SS VERONA. With the exception of few minor details, she`s obviously a sister of ORIGEN. However, it turns out that the houseflag is that of Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd. Glasgow and the funnels of that company are similar to those of J.P.P. What gives? Any ideas?Pic of Verona to large to attach so I\ll put her in the gallery.
Knut. http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5088&stc=1
Funnels & Houseflags.JPG
 

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Rory, as you say, it's almost certainly an error and the 'Oregon' should read 'Origen'.

A few years back I belonged to another shipping site, rather laid back and friendly, pretty much like this one.
Every so often we'd get an author of maritime books join, and each, without exception, appeared to be jealous of each other's scholarship, somewhat lacking in humor and really touchy when it came to their research.
Mark Goldberg was fun to have onboard, but he was really uptight when it came to historic accuracy, pretty much letting the members know that he dealt in the facts and only the facts.
The book is 600 pages long and I guess a few small errors must be expected. I've others by him in the same series and the research that went into these books is extraordinary. I don't think I'm too mean spirited if I have a very small chuckle over the small slip, knowing his worship of accuracy.

I didn't have a clue as to who or what "Origen" is or was.
Now I know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Bruce C
 

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This confusion shows how there is a reliance by some authors/people on hearsay, they see an item in a book or the internet and take it as gospel. Once it appears a couple of times then it suddenly becomes fact and those of you trying to correct it are pushed to one side.

An interesting thing supporting this is that there are two sites, one the NMM who are still wrongly identifying a ship that has been put to rights by members of this site. While investigating anything regarding Bolton Steam Shipping two sites gave reference to the ROMANIC, built 1954 for Bolton S S but a photo of the DRINA, that became the ROMANIC. This was identified as wrong by members of this Forum yet still it is displayed. Obviously they think that if the NMM says this is a photo of a particular ship then they are correct, not those of us who sailed on her.
 

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Knut, they're similar in appearance, but they are not sisters.
The 'Verona' and her sister, 'Vera', were 1903 products of Burmeister & Wain, measuring just over 1,220GT, 220' x 32, single screw, 3exp, 10 knots. Both were owned by A. F. Klaveness, Oslo.
The 'Origen' came from the Cart yard of the Abercorn Shipbuilding Co., Paisley and was a smaller ship. She was built in 1890 as the 'Sama' for Jacob Christensen and went to Pedersen in 1897. Other name and ownership changes followed.
942GT, 185' x 28', single screw, 3exp, 10 knots.

Above from the now well thumbed "Gong Bananas".

Rory, to add confusion to confusion, the facts in the alphabetical listing for the 'Oregon' do not appear to match the facts on page 275 (a liner bought by Hagbart Waage from a British company in 1899)

Bruce C
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi Bruce and Kurt;

Based on the photo I submitted as an attachment for the UFCo Charter ship. I would like to know where the accommodations for twenty passengers are located, if she ever turned out to be "The Oregon". This vessel does not appear to have too much space in the Main Castle for much of anything. Does seem to carry four lifeboats for that early time [the photo was taken in 1910 New Orleans].

I'm with you, Bruce, in that we seem to have two very different vessels in this instance. Now, I am only vaguely familiar with the highly praised "Starke-Schell Registers". Perhaps someone with access to these registers might be able to set us straight on this or these vessels.

Regarding errors that appear in well researched material, I think this is quite common. There is no doubt that the 600+ pages of Mr. Goldberg’s “Going Bananas” is a great reference work, but there will always be “typos”, and as “Baltic Wal” pointed out, misleading information that appears as fact.

Cheers,
Rory
 

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Unidentified Banana Boat

What a lovely old vessel, full of character. Can anyone tell me why there was a "turtle back" on the main deck at the counter stern? was it usual on these ships?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd

Knut;

Tropical Fruit S.S Co.Ltd was a division of the Parent United Fruit, and they placed many vessels under The Red Ensign through it. At least that is my understanding. There were many subsidiaries of the UFCo, and I have put together some of the known House flags and Funnels.
Rory
 

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Rory, I found the photograph included in a spectacular 1910(?) panorama of the United Fruit New Orleans docks. Well worth taking a look--Windows Picture & Fax Viewer (XP) blows the scene up nicely and you can get a close up view of the Origen's details, including a clear view of the nameboard.
Looks like two of the Workman, Clark, Glasgow registered Tropical Fruit ships flanking her. [
http://tinyurl.com/frypl
(#13 on the list)

Tropical, I think, was what you could call a flag of convenience, in many ways similar to the American ownership of the White Star and other passenger lines. United Fruit gained the advantage of the largest and best shipbuilding and manning source in the world combined with the lower costs of British yards, operating costs, registry and manpower.
Later, by special legislation in Washington at the outbreak of the war in Europe in 1914, the ships were able to transfer to United States registry.

Jock, I think the turtleback was originally to protect the wheelsman from rough or following seas. Probably continued in use to protect crew or passenger from the same conditions.You see it quite often in photos of smaller ships built in the last half of the nineteenth century

Bruce C

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
UFCo Ship Identification

Bruce,
That is a spectacular panorama shot. Do the two other larger vessels look like “5,000 Tonners” by Workman Clark & Co. Belfast, to you? Pity the photographer did not include their names for us.

On another note about UFCo ship identification, I have a question about a much more modern UFC [or whatever they call themselves nowadays] group of ships. They seem to be Honduras or Panama Flagged.vessels, and I have some particulars on a couple of them.

“Omoa-1965” is listed as ex German? “Lemoncore” [by Tanker from SN]
“Condata-1968” [UFC Boat?] is ex “Tangerinecore” [says so in caption of photo image]
“Olancho-1965” I have nothing on this one except it sure looks like a ‘Core Boat’
Then there is a list of ‘Core’ boats with later companies and names, but none I find for “Olancho” or other UFC ownership or charters. Many of these are shown in Sven Salen colors. We were always told when I worked for Salen that “Thing” above and below the S on the funnel was a Banana; and UFCo had something financially to do with Salen.
The other ‘Core Ships’;

AVOCADOCORE-1965
BANANACORE-1965
LEMONCORE-1964
MANDARINCORE-1968
MANGOCORE-1965
PERSIMMONCORE-1968
SABRACORE-1968
TANGERINECORE-1968
GUAVACORE-1969
NECTARINECORE-1970
NAVELINACORE-1970
SULTANACORE-1970

Any info for further UFC ships of this group will be welcomed.
Cheers,
Rory
 

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Rory, they have to be two of the thirteen 5,000 tonners, ten of which were built by 1910.
I don't think the first three (Cartago, Parismina and Heredia) had lifeboats at the stern as these two do, but that leaves seven to pick from.
Can't find another picture of a GWF vessel with the uptake showing above the funnel casing, as in the forward ship.
The long line of truly handsome United Fruit ships, evolutionary in design, from Workman, Clark must represent a high point in the relationship between an owner and the builders.

Bruce C
 
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