gadgee,
You had a lucky escape!! I sailed with him on the Respect when I was doing my steam-time. He was a "pompass ass", and coupled with the fact that the C/E was "Tadger" Smith who was also full of his own, supposed importance, the atmosphere on board was awful. One of the worst I ever sailed on.
JamesM

 

During my years at sea (as an engine room rating)...I can not remember the names of any Captains or Chief Engineers that I sailed with bar two...One was Captain Clive Downes (Shaw Savill and Albion) and the other was Captain Johnny Morrison (Corys Coastal Tankers) both good skippers and gentlemen in my eyes, that being the reason I remember their names...any one else seems to have gone up the funnel in smoke(Thumb)
Frank

 

James, with all due respect, we all sailed with people who we would not have chosen to step ashore with for a pint, but maybe SN is not the place to be insulting people from decades ago.
I personaly harboured a grievance with a Shell 2/E who made my life a misery when I was an apprentice, and would have cheerfully run the B*****d over if I got the chance on the road, but life moves on. It is funny how the a***holes stick in your mind after so many years.(Thumb)

 

BlythSpirit,
Don't want to start a slanging match, but was my "pompas ass", etc., any worse than your B*****d, etc.
Those two men, between them, created an atmosphere on that vessel that I have never, before or after, experienced on any other vessel.And that is not just my opinion, most of the Officers felt the same and could not wait to get off.
It was summed up quite succinctly by Michael Brunson of ITN News, who was onboard with a camera crew, doing a piece on large tankers in coastal waters,
when he described the way people were being treated as like a "floating boys boarding school".
JamesM

 

During the course of my job today I was introduced to Captain(Commodore) Alan Davies who informed me that he retired from BP in about 1978. I never met nor heard of him during my 5 years with BP(66 - 71) but just in case anyone remembers him, he is in moderate health and lives in rural Northumberland. He was Commodore on British Respect at the 1977 Spithead Review.

I sailed with Captain Davies, he had his own toolbag, he could be found almost anywhere swinging in a Bosuns chair.
I was CPO, he always wore Flip-flops around the deck, so the deck crew started doing the same. I tried to get it stopped, he wouldn't hear of it, luckily no one lost any toes.

 

I appear to have rekindled mixed memories here. I sailed with Commodore Ronnie Friendship on British Argosy in 1968. I only remember him as a pleasant mild-mannered gentleman. Undoubtedly others may differ?(Ouch)

 

Don't want to start a slanging match, but was my "pompas ass", etc., any worse than your B*****d, etc.

My point exactly -maybe they were not different, but you identified on SN who you thought ill of - I haven't.

 

So are you saying that we can name and praise,--- but not name and critise? Seems a bit unbalanced to me.
JamesM

 

Just a small aside. Do these senior shipmasters who you refer to as Commodore actually called Commodore. For all the criticism BF gets they never used the title. I have always understood Commodore to be a loose recognition of the Senior Master. As an example in my BF days a certain Capt McDavid was the senior Master and was appointed to the Senior ship 'Peleus' (the Christmas Ship).
Strangely enough all the senior people of all disciplines were in that ship. The senior Ch.Eng, Bosun etc they were all there.

 

JamesM,

What can criticing possibly achieve. The men in most cases cannot defend themselves. Who was it who said 'If you can't say anything good don't say anything at all'. I wish I followed that principle myself throughout my life.

Brgds

Bill

 

Bill,
Perhaps critise was the wrong word to use, but surely everyone has the right to pass comment as they see fit.
I'm sure that I am not the only one who has voiced their thoughts on people with whom they have sailed or come into contact.(see post by Ryder, 2nd July 2008 as one example.)
JamesM
For your information, the two "gentlemen" in question had such a bad effect on moral that the 4/E actually left the company because of it. Now it that's not fit for comment, I don't know what is!

 

Sure we have all sailed with people we dislike, and am certain people have taken a dislike to me over the years, with most of it being water under the keel as they say.

For James to be so forceful in his comments, he must have very good reasons, this being the case we must accept what he says as fair and reasonable.
twogrumpy

 

I'm with James all the way on this one. There are times, I think, when we tend to get hung up on the rosy glow of nostalgia and the romance of voyages past. Even 30 years ago communications were, comparatively, much more restricted than today and ships much more self-contained/insulated environments. In these cir***stances it was very easy for obnoxious Masters, C/E's etc. to make life extremely difficult for junior officers by petty and capricious behaviour.

I spent most of my time at sea with BP and it was a great crowd of people; (crap ships, mind you!). I never sailed with either of the characters in question but I can recall just one or two (and only that) who were a waste of a good human skin and seemed to take great pleasure in inflicting their petty authority one those less able to make reply. Thankfully there were crowds of others who were fine shipmates, socially and professionally, and it was they who went to make it a great job.

 

Gentlemen.
I hate to put a damper on the idea of a balance of critiscism against praise but you have to factor in that the site is searchable from the internet and therefore such comments are fully visible to non-members.
You may be commenting on someone's beloved father, grandfather, husband, etc., by name.

 

Gentlemen.
I hate to put a damper on the idea of a balance of critiscism against praise but you have to factor in that the site is searchable from the internet and therefore such comments are fully visible to non-members.
You may be commenting on someone's beloved father, grandfather, husband, etc., by name.

Kris,
Very well put. Commendable!
Brgds
Bill

 

Definitely Walter Mitty but probably a defence mechanism. I think they were all Marconi sparkies.
I was pulled up by a junior engineer on either a Benboat or one of Ellerman's for wearing three rings. He complained to the Old Man about it.
Seems an electronics officer with 10 years seniority should still know his place. (Cloud)

 

twogrumpy and Geoff_E,
Thank you both for your understanding and support.
JamesM

 

Like Bill D. I have always associated the term Commodore with Senior Captain although both terms are R.N. unless of course they are also R.N.R. Members, I never worked for B.P. but with it being part Government owned I am sure it will have contained a number of R.N.R. people and telling "Civilians" that you are a "Ships Master" does not light any bulbs up whereas "Ships Captain" does the trick, I went for an interview with Ben's (Thompsons) in early 60's at Edinburgh, what an old fashioned place I expected Charles Dickens to sign me up with a quill pen but like a lot of British Companies at that time promotion to 2nd Eng was based on the dead man's shoe's waiting list.

 

"...........I am sure it will have contained a number of R.N.R. people......"

Not very many.

 

Just to clarify the RN/RNR Commodore issue.

The rank is the first Flag Rank and was not often used as a substantive rank -RN Captains were promoted to Acting Commodore while holding a particular appointment but of course anyone being made "Acting Commodore" might well have been destined for higher things.

In my time we had two RNR Commodores - one for List Three which was the "usual" non (or indeed ex) MN guys doing their usual training on a weekly/weekend/fortnight a year basis and one for List One which was for the active MN guys.

I must have met more but the one I remember is the List One Commodore Tony Barret (P&O?) from London Division.

I can not say what happens today - except that Commodore as an RN substantive rank seems to be more common as there are less Admirals! I am almost sure in saying that the if there are any RNR COmmodores today it is probably only a combined role for both MN and the "normal" RNR personnel.

McC

 

McC, I am afraid my poor wording has probably caused some confusion so I will try again. I agreed with BillD. In the M.N. the term Commodore was usually the Senior Master within the Company concerned. Both Captain and Commodore are R.N. ranks in reality but the use of the term Captain in the M.N. has some meaning to a "Civilian" who would not possibly give the same credence to the term Ships "Master". In regards to M.N. "Masters" also holding an R.N.R. rank it would appear from Goeff E that there were not many in B.P. from what I read. I wonder how many M.N. Deck Officers on the S.N. site are/were also R.N.R. Officer's

 

If its any use to anyone my father, a chief engineer gained Commodore in 65 (? doing this from memory) at the time of the launch of Br Admiral, reading his paperwork and letters from the company the rank was given as recognition of service to the company, not just long service but excelling in your position.
If I have time I'll dig out the letters to see if it contains anything of any use.

 

I think you will have many disputing the 'excelling' bit. Commodore in the MN was usually applied to the holder being longest in command. I cannot recall any British Company I sailed in actually using the prefix. It can be said with certainty that it was not a prefix that a Chief Engineer would use.

We used to joke in Ludwigs about the Commodore bit as the Senior Master was a certain Frank Hornby who took the 'Ireland' and three sisters out of the Yard. Suuberg and Babalis took the others. Frank did not sit easy with pomp and ceremony although he was Admiral (retired) USN.

 

Wasn't the term Commodore used during the war to designate the Senior captain who would be in charge of the convoy.???

John.

 

No, John, he was almost invariably R.N./R.N.R..

 

I first met Commodore John Sutton in Nagasaki when standing by the Reliance. I had known of and respected his achievements for years, The title Commodore could not have been bestowed upon a more deserving Chief Engineer in BP. He did more during his tenure as Chief to raise the standard of BP Chief Engineers and the company were correct in stating he "excelled" in the position of Chief Engineer. Regards - Roger

 

I have no doubt he was a fine engineer but I find the title for a Captain and more so an Engineer a little alien to me.

 

:Commodore - Captain - Master - SN has been along this path before.

A little bit of history for you all.

Commodore

The Dutch invented the word "Commodore" in 1652 and it comes from the word "Comendador" which means "Having command of others". The Dutch found that during the wars with England in the 1600's that they needed officers to command squadrons but did not want the create additional Admiral ranks. The Dutch leader William of Orange introduced the rank to the British navy in 1689 when he became King William 111. A short time later the British merchant navy began using the title and called the most senior officer in a companies fleet Commodore. It was given at the discretion of the shipping company owners or senior management. In the RN or any other counties navy it is a rank and used across all branches and is abtained by way of examination and promotion through the ranks.

Master or Captain

Used for examination purposes in the Merchant Marine to say that you have Mastered all that is required to Captain a ship of whatever tonnage. In the navy Masters and Captains are two seperate ranks and can only be obtained by way of examination and promotion. In the navy the rank "Master" used to sit between the Lt ranks ie Sub Lt - 2nd Master - Lt - Master - Lt-Commander. From Commander onwards the rank Master stopped. Some navies still used it for other ranks ie Master Chief PO etc.

So BP tankers could have given it to a long serving, loyal and ranking member of its sea going staff.

Regards
Blair
NZ

 

British Respect

Hi Jim,
I was there with you and in fact helping you with your steam time, I was the third engineer Dave P. with Marilyn my wife sailing with me.
Remember the pair of them very well. Remember Tadger and his no boots in the control room and coming in there one day and having a real good go at you being a 'motor man' and your stand up row with him. If I remember we had just been in the steam drum of the boiler and were sitting in the control room going through boiler drawings when he came in. Good old memories.

Still here, still sailing on their tankers.

 

Hi Jim,
I was there with you and in fact helping you with your steam time, I was the third engineer Dave P. with Marilyn my wife sailing with me.
Remember the pair of them very well. Remember Tadger and his no boots in the control room and coming in there one day and having a real good go at you being a 'motor man' and your stand up row with him. If I remember we had just been in the steam drum of the boiler and were sitting in the control room going through boiler drawings when he came in. Good old memories.

Still here, still sailing on their tankers.

Hi Dave, Nice to hear from you.Glad to know you're still around and earning a crust.
Will contact you later via you're personal e-mail.
Regards JamesM

 

Retirement does one good

Good to see some one is drawing a pension. Most of the old timers especially engineers after sevice east of suez croaked shortly after retirement at 55.
Anyone recall Old Fruitgum 'Captain Roundtree' from I think Hull.

 

Captain Bob Rowntree, or "coco" as he was known when I was with him.... British Admiral-1972.

He would move into the bridge day-cabin as we rounded Ushant inward bound...and stay there till we passed Ushant outward bound!
Remember coming loaded through the Suez canal just after it had re-opened..I think he expected a mine to take us out at anytime....despite a full RN escort.

Bob Hammond was mate I think...did most of the legwork for the captain.

 

He would move into the bridge day-cabin as we rounded Ushant inward bound...and stay there till we passed Ushant outward bound!

My my! What a difference in captains behaviour.

The one and only bad experience in BP with a master who was "up himself" was in '67? British Glory. First trip uncert. 3/0. At Gatwick airport when he found out I was uncert he rang Head Office to have me replaced - and let everyone know it. Too late he was told. I did not have the balls to walk out from what I knew was going to be hell for 6 months.

Sailed from Wilhelmshaven and was very surprised not to see him on the bridge for the evening 8 - 12. Going southbound through the Channel with 285 targets on the radar - no sign of the old man. I thought it very unusual to let a 20 y.o first trip 3/0 loose with a 35k ton ship in such crowded waters. No regulation channels in those days. Very relieved to hand over to Harry Tate at midnight.

It turned out that he NEVER came on the bridge after sunset and only came up for the noon site in his dressing gown. Insisted on full uniform at all times for everybody else - including cap. Complained like hell if we walked over his cabin area on the bridge etc. etc.

I think that was when I started to lose the hair from on top. The skid bonce never recovered!

Arthur