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Titanic Lifeboat question

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#41 ·
This of course compounds the 'problem' Lifeboats are normally numbered as even number port, odd number starboard. So No 4 lifeboat would be from the port side. No 5 from the Starboard side. The question then is, does a pattern emerge regarding position of fittings when the side from which the boat came from is considered?
 
#42 ·
Frapping. Here is what W H Smythe has to say:

(to)FRAP: To bind tightly together. To pass lines around a sail to keep it from blowing loose. To secure the falls of a tackle together by means of spun yarn, rope yarn, or any lashings wound round them; To snap the finger and thumb; to beat.

FRAPPING: The act of crossing and drawing together several parts of a tackle, or other complication of ropes, which had already been strained to a great extent; In this sense it exactly resembles the operation of the bracing of a drum. The frapping increases tension and consequently adds to the security acquired by the purchase; hence the cat-harpings were no other than frappings to the shrouds.

FRAPPING A SHIP: (already mentioned above) The act of passing four or five turns of large cable laid rope round a ship's hull when it is apprehended that she is not strong enough to resist the violence of the seas........

FRAPPING TURNS: In securing the booms at sea the several turns of the lashings are frapped in preparation for the succeeding turns; in emergency, nailed.

I hope that helps.

From a pure engineering point of view I have to concur with Nick Balls, in that the two blocks were unlikely to have individually served the same purpose but may have been complementary. The vertical block is strongly mounted and accessible from both faces; The horizontal block would not take strain without damaging the boat and only the top is fully accessible.
If a rope is intended to be passed though the eye then the vertical block would be amenable to threading and would take a strain.
Supposing this to be the case then the direction of strain would, I suggest, be perpendicular to the alignment of the hole, otherwise the rope would be required to turn sharply with increasing chaffing and reduction in strength.
With the horizontal block the axis would be vertical - where to? To a boom maybe?
 
Discussion starter · #43 ·
Mr. Landsman:
There was no boom used with the dipping lug rig of these boats.
I think we're getting too hung up on definitions of "frapping". Let's set that word aside for a moment. What I was postulating was that these objects represented a means to dampen rocking of the boat. By that I mean rotation about the axis with the disengaging gear at the center. I do not mean swinging of the boat from the davit. Below is a drawing used to portray the motion these lines I propose were meant to prevent. The attachment of these lines would be forward and aft of the thwarts so as not to affect passengers or vice versa. They do not
take the full weight of the boat. They are merely meant to dampen the rocking movement. They would not pull a man overboard because they would take a turn around the boat bitts. I may be completely wrong in my analysis but let me ask a question: How would rocking motion otherwise be dampened? This would be a concern in these boats because they used a disengaging gear which could possibly open and drop at least one end of the boat if there was sufficient force.
These eyes being on opposite sides could dampen rotation in either direction, clockwise or counterclockwise. I suggested that they worked in tandem to provide both a secure attachment and so that the force applied to them would be spread over a wider area.
How would you otherwise arrest this motion? A painter is right in the middle of the axis of rotation.
Regards,
Bob Read
 

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#45 ·
Bob,
Your idea sounds entirely logical. Whether or not such a system was used and, indeed, how it was used we need to find out.
The horizontal block, as I suggest, has the hole axis in the vertical and any load would be in that direction.
If ropes were previously placed ready in the boat, fore and aft, leading from the block and bent onto the davits then a crewman at each end could pay out the rope while the boat was being lowered (after the bousing tackle had been released).
The blocks would need to be positioned, as they are, as far from the centreline as possible to maximise the turning moment but at the same time they must in a position where a crewman can work them without hinderance.
If no-one was available to work the ropes they would still have a steadying effect by simple friction, assuming the ropes are properly flaked down and could pay out evenly.
Once the boat had been released then the steadying ropes could be run out and left, hence not seen at a later time.
I would also suggest that the blocks were 'either/or' and that the vertical blocks could be used with an empty boat with just one man midships working both ends.

Malcolm.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Mad Landsman said:
Bob,
Your idea sounds entirely logical. Whether or not such a system was used and, indeed, how it was used we need to find out.
The horizontal block, as I suggest, has the hole axis in the vertical and any load would be in that direction.
If ropes were previously placed ready in the boat, fore and aft, leading from the block and bent onto the davits then a crewman at each end could pay out the rope while the boat was being lowered (after the bousing tackle had been released).
The blocks would need to be positioned, as they are, as far from the centreline as possible to maximise the turning moment but at the same time they must in a position where a crewman can work them without hinderance.
If no-one was available to work the ropes they would still have a steadying effect by simple friction, assuming the ropes are properly flaked down and could pay out evenly.
Once the boat had been released then the steadying ropes could be run out and left, hence not seen at a later time.
I would also suggest that the blocks were 'either/or' and that the vertical blocks could be used with an empty boat with just one man midships working both ends.

Malcolm.
Click to expand...
Malcolm they wouldn't even supply enough boat space for all souls (Cloud)
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
As interesting as it might be to adjudicate the responsibility for the events surrounding the Titanic disaster can we not hijack this thread. Peripheral discussions can be discussed in their own threads.
Thanks.

Regards,
Bob Read
 
#48 ·
joebuckham said:
Malcolm they wouldn't even supply enough boat space for all souls (Cloud)
Click to expand...
What I am suggesting is the theory of how it should work at the design and building stage of the boats - Not the practice of use in an actual emergency.
The feature was probably not unique to one ship.

I think that many people, myself included, have encountered the huge difference between design and use in the field.
 
#50 ·
I'm not sure about this rocking business. Among the many pictures of Titanic and contemporary boats is a picture of a very similar boat on the Megantic. This shows quite clearly how the Boat was bowsed against the horizontal bar using two diagonal lines. Yes these would have been released as the boat was put into the lowering position but any swing that occurred after this would have not been controlled by the mystery fittings. The problem is that the angle changes quickly as the boat goes down and the control of the boat is taken up better with the main bow painter and possibly with a stern line. This is a problem I have encountered having launched boats at sea many times. Even today with modern equipment the rocking problem remains and skill at launching a boat comes down to a smooth and rapid descent, which decreases the possibly of a 'rocking' boat. If these fittings had been simple cleats I could see a possible argument for this but has as been said they are more specific that that.
 
#51 ·
I tried to explain in the earlier post. The bowsing tackle to be used to keep the boat hard up to the side of the ship or the boats or rocked or whatever it can be called. We know from our own experiences at sea that bowsing tackle was attached to the 'O' link between the lifting look and the lower block of the falls.

Remember how the boat could become a bucking horse if you failed to secure the bowsing tackle once the tricing penants were released. The only piece of gear required close by and secured for use was the small axe.

For sure... the two wooden fittings OP is questioning could not be strong to attach bowsing tackle and the idea of holding a light line to hand hold the boat steady is impossible. The 30ft boats would weigh loaded probably 4 to 5 tones. Two or more men cannot hold a heavy boat with 65 passengers and taking another 30 minutes to load.

Stephen
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
Ok, here is a challenge to those who dismiss the theory of the use of lines and these structures to dampen rocking motion:
If these structures are indeed for sail handling please provide some sort of detailed diagram or photo showing how both bow and stern structures would be rigged with a loose footed lugsail with a dipping lug rig. I've put up all sorts of photos and drawings to demonstrate my theory. It's time to put up or...

Regards
Bob Read
 
#53 ·
In my opinion the two eyes in the original picture don't appear to be load bearing, for bowsing in or whatever, being wooden and partly at least fixed to the hull. I think perhaps as they are so close to each other, they may be for stowing the same thing in either a horizontal or vertical position as required. Say a boat hook, perhaps for when the sail + boat hook is used for catching rain water for example. Or securing stuff once removed from the storage containers. Lamp, Colza oil, hatchet, something like that.....
 
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#56 · (Edited)
There are a few points of agreement here.
1)The fittings are wood and therefore in there configeration represent a 'lightweight fitting'
2) The fittings occur in the boat at bow and stern on opposite sides but never as a pair port & Starboard.
3)The arrangement seems random (not connected to which side the particular boat was to the vessel)
This would seem to exclude
a) Use of sheets (They would only be at the stern in that case)
b) Associated with lowering gear as they are lightweight.

What we do know is that they are arranged together in the same configuration, in other words they seem to relate to each other.

They remind me of a very old sailing boat I used to own, from the 1920's. This had a traditional rig consisting of a wooden mast and spars (Gunter rig) The forestay of this boat consisted of a soft wire eye (well parcelled) that simply looped over the mast. However the device that stopped it slipping down was a very similar wooden chock with a simple hole in it, The chock takes little load but acts to stop the wire moving. All the force is taken by the whole diameter of the mast.
In lots of ways the fittings look similar BUT I can't for the life of me see how they would work or what they are for...............still looking at it and digging out literature.

Another point....did rope pass through the hole or was it a pin (Belay) or rod ( as in a supporting frame)

What might you have a 'one of' for use at bow or stern? Sea Anchor (this has two lines but would have to carry full weight on the main one, the tripping line however would have no load)

What about toggle painters which have a wooden pin to slip? A wooden pin on a line?

Keep thinking you guys we need answers!!
 
#57 ·
bpread said:
I'll see your Munro's Primer and raise you "The Lifeboat -It's Construction, Equipment and Management: A guide to the Board of Trade Lifeboat Efficiency Examination" by Harold S. Blake (1926)

See outlined text.

Regards,
Bob Read
Click to expand...


Yes, this is correct... OR if in a locker beneath the thwart. No lockers under the thwarts of TITANIC.

It is also true that is sail by some experts that said that loose gear that was usually in the boat was kept in a deck locker to prevent theft. Also said that some items were left in the deck locker and were not put into the boat.
 
#59 ·
Here three photos for consideration.

1. Photo of WW1 lifeboat (sternsheets) that has been restorated in a museum. Nothing of what we need for a Titanic boat, but shows some small things that can be found in a boat... and 'might be used' for those two chocks.

2. Large lifeboat of modern vessel... c 1965. Just to show how the bowsing tackle is rigged... from the deck side to the lower block of the falls and shows how the boat is kept steady and hard against to the ship's side.

Note:

From you post:

Also from maritime expert Paul Bruno:
"Lines attached to the bow and stern of the lifeboat are called Frapping Lines and are used to control the movement of the boat as it is lowered or raised. An additional line is attached to the bow of the lifeboat to keep it near the ship after all other rigging has been released. This line is called a Sea Painter."


Bowsing tackle is completely in difference from the purpose in use of a boat.... c. 1912


Whatever you can call these two items.... it cannot be use, in any way, to help in keeping the boat stead during embarkation.



Lastly.... see Certificate Of Efficency As Lifeboatman.

Do you have one or have had practical work with lifeboats? I think all of the other fellows here on this Thread on SN are also "Lifeboatmen"!

Stephen
 

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#60 ·
Nick,

Good for the YouTube. See the photo attached.... DEVANHA.

For good a YouTube for lifeboats...


" BOAT DRILL A MAURETANIA AKA AQUITANIA? 1920-1930 "

The footage shown is actually Aquitania. The first part is boat rowing. Second part is lowering boats. What a work of job it must have been for Boat Drill!

They show passengers embarking through a shell door. In real emergency they would have gone from Boat Deck or from Promenade Deck 'A' or Bridge Deck 'B'.

Stephen
 
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Nick Balls
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