What do you suggest we do, Jim?

 

A ship is a ship; just several thousand tons of potential scrap! Evoloution and progress will produce even better. We have pictures, films and heaven knows what else, why should we want to mothball what in the end will only rust away?

 

Here's to "Evoloution and progress", read this: http://www.c4tx.org/ctx/pub/tromedy2.pdf

 

Well I Guess

Well this was a sore topic wasn.t it.Holy cow I didn,t think you guys hated these pieces of history that much.Do you not care the smallest what happens to the QE2 one of the most stateliest ships of our time.I can,t believe this guys come one you must have some feelings.I read to day the big hula balu about trying to save the Blue Lady.I just thought that might spark a little interest in the remaining ones sorry I brought up what seems to be a sore subject.(Frogger)

 

It's not a sore subject with me, Jim, I was just curious to know what you intended we do?

 

I guess what I,m trying to say is if we want to preserve these liners we need to act long before their end is in sight as we seen with the NORWAY,it seemed a lot of people out there wanted to save her but it was just to late.Does this make sense to you?

 

Jim
I for one would like to see these vessels preserved and will participate in anything you have in mind. Lets just not talk about the Nostalgia of these vessels but keep them for future generations to see.

 

Don't forget that these are huge floating objects that will be very difficult to maintain. We're talking millions of dollars, probably. Who has that sort of money? Then you have to find somewhere to keep them.

It's not like preserving historic cars, trains or even aircraft. Private individuals and preservation goups can succeed with these because they are small, cost less and it's not that difficult to find somewhere to keep them.

You can't keep a 1000ft ship in your back yard, can you?

I'm sorry, it's not that I hate these ships, but you have to be realistic.

 

To a large part I agree, I am also part of Lorry and Car preservation and God knows thats costly and difficult enough, the thought of the harbour fees alone scares the hell out of me.
But a pile of scrap metal doesnt produce any nostalgia does it.
A very tricky one for either side of this case.

 

Ok lets close the books on this one.Thanks for the disscusion on this one.I,m not going to drag this out any further.I don,t want to make any mortal enemies on here the site is to good for that.Thanks very much-----regds---Jim

 

Maybe it has to be as well organized and professionally managed outfit like the Dutchies who seemed to move extraordinarily swiftly to save/restore the "Rotterdam".
Visit www.s.s.rotterdam
Any 'insiders' info Ruud?
Regards,
David D.

 

A commendable thought, it's sad that for instance only one Liberty ship is still around, out of what, a thousand? To preserve the technology for future generations would be good. But I am afraid that the expense climbs by the square of the tonnage involved and even with small coasters it gets expensive fast!
Incidently there are quite a few Musuem ships, its the gaps that one would like to see filled, since there is NO way you can save every ship !
in the UK there are a few Puffers, Vics, side trawlers (Corsair), Thames barges and such, and the Waverley
The dutch have the "Anda" and quite a few others.
Germany has several old sail ships, as well as a 'fleet' at the DSM in Bremerhaven and a few tugs, icebreakers, coasters maintained by private groups or local museums.
Even the US has a few "Oldies"
Unfortunately some of these ships there were so many of that most were scrapped before anyone noticed that they were gone...
Or they were not popular enough to be saved.
Not sure what else to do, unless you want the UN to save them all?
Incidently most ships that are restored/saved, the ball got rolling with one individual that founded some sort of support group

 

Agree with Bearsie,

We would probably all love to see all these old ships restored / preserved but money is the deciding factor.

We have ( in the UK alone ) Manxman, Royal Iris, Medway Queen, Maid of the Loch, Calshot and lots of others crying out for restoration, with Waverley, Balmoral, Shieldhall, Sir Walter Scott, Kingswear Castle etc just getting by in operational presevation.

To take on the likes of a Cunard Queen would be impossibly expensive except for a huge corporation or someone like Richard Branson and even then it would have to be closely watched and very well managed as these guys didn't get rich by being reckless or careless with money.

A

 

It does not cost a penny though to have dreams

 

The costs are very high indeed plus you need the infrastructure to moor a beastie like that alongside with a plan how to commercialise the event in order to get a pay back for the investors.
ssRotterdam, once in place in the old Maashaven across the city of Rotterdam, may well have cost over 30 million USD.
Jan

 

Gdynia, I was amused by your "Where theres a way theres a will" reminded me of an old legal joke which is,
"Where theres a will, theres a relative".

 

Preservation of these ships may have a sentimental appeal but I suspect that appeal isn't quite as strong amongst many members of the cloth (and ex members) as it it is among the enthusiasts; who haven't chipped the decks or cleaned the bottom plates.
Steel ships demand relentless and dedicated upkeep, on a scale, I suspect, far beyond the imagination of many. To the mariners their memory may encompass good voyages, hard voyages, happy memories or otherwise; but at the end of the day the articles closed, we left and went on our way - to other ships or whatever.
I'm afraid that donations aren't the way forward. A good business plan and hefty capital backing may get a project going, but even there, times change and commercial imperatives. (After all that's why many vessels become redundant in the first instance). Shipowning is and always has been, a hard-nosed business and we shouldn't forget that these "heritage objects" were built with only one purpose in mind, to make a profit for the owners and their shareholders.
I was actually quite upset to find photographs of Manxman in Pallion shipyard. What a waste! A huge commercial and strategic asset like that wasted, why isn't that exercising our enthusiasm and righteous anger?
Enough, I suspect this will will bring down a storm of protest, from some, but I think there'll also be quite a few sage heads nodding in agreement. Whatever, I'm not particularly worried. Ships fascinate me, I've spent a working lifetime on and with them (still ongoing) but when it's time for them to go, that's it.

 

Geoff. I totally agree with your sentiments, especially in relation to Manxman.

The Manxman Steamship Co does have a viable business plan and once restored she could fund all the running costs, including maintenance and build a reserve toward future dry docking and hull work. Additionally we have been told that as a commercial assett her value would be multi million.

It doesn't need to remain a dream. We have the support of Liverpool and Wirral Councils together with NW Development Agency (also 2 private investors and a potential major commercial backer) to develop the project which would lead to 60+ permanent jobs as well as an iconic feature providing unique training and educational benefits. The ship is also classed as Designated on the National Register of Historic Vessels.

However we no longer have the offer of a permanent berth on Merseyside, and last week the ship was dry docked at Pallion. We suspect that an MCA survey is imminent and this could lead to her being taken for scrap. The last opportunity to restore a mini liner at a sensible cost!

Bill Ogle Manxman Steamship Company (www.ssmanxman.co.uk)

Preservation of these ships may have a sentimental appeal but I suspect that appeal isn't quite as strong amongst many members of the cloth (and ex members) as it it is among the enthusiasts; who haven't chipped the decks or cleaned the bottom plates.
Steel ships demand relentless and dedicated upkeep, on a scale, I suspect, far beyond the imagination of many. To the mariners their memory may encompass good voyages, hard voyages, happy memories or otherwise; but at the end of the day the articles closed, we left and went on our way - to other ships or whatever.
I'm afraid that donations aren't the way forward. A good business plan and hefty capital backing may get a project going, but even there, times change and commercial imperatives. (After all that's why many vessels become redundant in the first instance). Shipowning is and always has been, a hard-nosed business and we shouldn't forget that these "heritage objects" were built wIt ith only one purpose in mind, to make a profit for the owners and their shareholders.
I was actually quite upset to find photographs of Manxman in Pallion shipyard. What a waste! A huge commercial and strategic asset like that wasted, why isn't that exercising our enthusiasm and righteous anger?
Enough, I suspect this will will bring down a storm of protest, from some, but I think there'll also be quite a few sage heads nodding in agreement. Whatever, I'm not particularly worried. Ships fascinate me, I've spent a working lifetime on and with them (still ongoing) but when it's time for them to go, that's it.

 

Prserving The Queens?

Hello Folks,
As a old nostalgia buff I agree with all the people who feel like me. The 'Queen Mary" has been well looked after by our American cousins,its inevitable that if it does'nt pay for itself it would eventually have to go ( WHAT A PROBLEM). Someone mentioned the City of Glasgow might want it back, but I don't see them doing that? I would suggest Glasgow, if they are feeling that generous, go for the Q E 11,she is a lovely ship, and the last big ocean liner built at Clydebank. As for the 'Queen Mary 11", she is just a big hogged backed floating casino like all the other cruise ships!
Neil Mac.

 

Can We Save Them

It seems to me, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames by more knowledgable members, that the only way to preserve vessels is as going concerns. Owners scrap ships because they are no longer profitable. I know many of the preserved vessels have volunteer crew, could not a small cargo ship, even though old, be kept running as a going concern with qualified volunteers?
A large part of ship's cost is the crews wages, if this was deducted it might still be possible , not to run at a profit, but to cover a large part of the costs.
I think there are many qualified retired seamen who would jump at the chance to run an old ship. Maybe even paying for the privilige! After all its not that long ago that apprentices had to pay for their indentures!
Am I making sense or is this wooly thinking?
Regards, Jock

 

dom

why the queens?the queen mary in L.A.is saved shes from a time when ships were ships,the others dime a dozen as our cousins would say,why not an old collier fort/park/empire/jeep when you knew you were on a ship cruise liners rubbish,just my thought

 

Indeed Dom.
My suggestion is this. The old HMS Rame Head will be decommissioned/scrapped soon from her role as a special forces training ship in Pompey. She is the last surviving Fort/Ocean/Park type vessel afloat, and certainly the very last British cargo type ship from WW2.
Although she was never a cargo ship, being converted to a repair ship before going into service. Why can't she be saved, and be converted into her original role. i.e. fit holds, derricks etc so she looks like a Fort/Ocean/Park in a similar vein to the many John W Brown, Jeremiah O Brian and the many Victory ships now preserved in the US.
We have nothing to compare. It would fill a monumental gap in the history of the Second War.
Wouldn't it look great in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard?

 

I'm joining this thread late!

Volunteering. Some of us have been 'out of commission' for years, but I know that I'd volunteer to a) spend working weekends aboard b) volunteer for work aboard as part of a crew during sailing days. It would be a working holiday and like a fw on here, I suspect, the taking part would be something we'd willingly do.

Paying for it. The ship could serve to provide working experience to groups like Sea Cadets, RNR, MNR (if it is still going! ), MVS - as well as 'working holidays'for youth, rather like the Tall Ships do. My daughter 'ships out' on a tall ship for 7 days at a cost of about £300 - not including flights there and back! The ship could be hired out to TV and film companies.......there are ways to make it earn BUT.......

As many have said, you need a good, solid business plan. You need a permanent berth, insurance, surveys etc........

'Rame Head' could probably be purchased from the MoD for a nominal sum of money - but she'd need to be moved, towed to her new port and etc - which means a capital sum up front. No towage outfit will do it for free!

So yes, there are problems more real than ambition but that is not to say it could not be done. 'Rame Head' is a perfect example of us keeping alive a representative type of ship like the Liberty - but, realistically, her appearance differs now from 'as built' and she'd need major conversion back.......internal and external.

I could go on. For every good idea there is a reality check - but again, that is not to say we could not do it!

Or am I dreaming too?

Jonty

 

How about preserving just a bit of the ships as a lot of the Mauretania & Olympic were done? Say as follows:
QUEEN MARY (with significant corosion) Preserve the wheel house fittings, radio room fittings, observation bar plus artwork. a turbine set & steering gear Would need a hotel group, museum or similar to build into replica structures of non-ferrous materials.
RAME HEAD Preserve the engine (if still on board - & if not the ship is maybe not worth saving) & the bridge equipment if original.
It is better to save something rather than nothing & the whole may be impossible particularly if used as a hotel due to health & safety, fire regs, disability access etc etc.

Just a thought but one could form a group for purchase of smaller items for preservation & display - may even pay for itself???

 

Well we now know that Queen Elizabeth 2 will be preserved at least in the short term. But the original idea to start planning a post sailing career for some of these venerable vessels before it's too late is highly commendable.

 

At the end of the day, any project such as this does not make economic sense. and that is what it all boils down to.

 

They, the Germans, appear to be doing a good job with Cap San Diego in Hamburg. She has been about as a 'museum ship' for quiet a while. How do they get the funds to preserve & keep Her?

 

The QM2 is not British built so I'm sorry what in year's time happens so be it.